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Thoughts on Cheating in Multiplayer Games

Posted on 23rd Aug 2010 at 14:16 by Joe Martin with 98 comments

Joe Martin
Harry occasionally refers to me as, among other things, ‘Mr Singleplayer’ such is my general lack of interest in multiplayer games. I just prefer a properly told story than the thrill of Capturing the Flag, really, making me the polar opposite to Harry in regards to more than just my good looks and manly physique.

Still, one of the few multiplayer games to successfully capture my attention has been the Modern Warfare games, which ensnared me with their speed and slow dribble of achievements and new weapon unlocks. I’ve been known to dabble in Left 4 Dead and various Source mods, like Plan of Attack and The Hidden, but MW2 multiplayer is what I tend to play when I want to shoot a real person, generally.

And yesterday, I had my first definite run in with a cheater.

Thoughts on Cheating in Multiplayer Games
Why wallhack?

To some of you the surprising part will obviously be that it’s taken me this long to have a run-in with a cheater – but, again, I don’t play MP that much. And anyway, maybe I have had encounters with cheaters before and I just didn’t know it; it’s not exactly rare to hear cries of ‘HaX!’ ring through a server, not for me to get killed by players who can predict my every move.

The surprising thing to me though was the boldness of this player, who confirmed that he was cheating when accused of cheating by another player. He seemed proud of the fact. It boggled my mind.

So what?” He declared, “Everyone does.

No, I informed him (using language I can’t quote verbatim here), they don’t. Then I called him a loser and quit the server. Some would call that a rage quit, but it was more an acknowledgement of futility than an act of anger. I didn’t quit because I was angry at him; it was because there was no point playing in that match any more. It would be more fun to go back to the singleplayer.

Thoughts on Cheating in Multiplayer Games
This gun shoots homing lightning rockets coated in anti-matter lava, automatically

It honestly baffles me why anyone would want to cheat in a multiplayer game like that, not least of all because Valve’s VAC system means you're putting your Steam account at risk with every hack. In a singleplayer game cheats can be useful and occasionally make sense – using God Mode to get past a troublesome battle you’ve been stuck on, for example. Or for allowing you to breeze through the incredibly repetitive last third of Doom 3.

In multiplayer games though, there’s none of that. There’s no goal other than the fighting and if you cheat you’re effectively undermining even that. You can reach the top of leaderboard, but even you have to recognise that it’s a hollow, pointless victory, right?

There are a few circumstance I can see multiplayer cheats being fun or useful, but only really on servers where the whole point is to either grind for achievements or to try something new. One of the only matches of Counter-Strike I ever enjoyed was one where everyone had cheats on and spent the game making human pyramids or towers – but that’s still fairly rare to see. Most people play a game to play a game. If you’re using cheats to play a standard deathmatch then you’re just going to end up going through the motions and hating the game, surely?

Honestly, what’s the point?

98 Comments

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StoneyMahoney 23rd August 2010, 14:29 Quote
Multiplayer games reward you when you kill people/win/whatever giving you positive reinforcement of whatever it was you did to kill people/win/etc. Most people relish the challenge of competing with their opponents, making the rewards they get even more compelling. However, some people don't connect winning with overcoming challenges and are just as happy to get that victory reward by circumventing the rules of the rest of the game. The still get the same positive reinforcement that we get, so rather than shaping their gaming skills they shape their cheating skills.
MajorTom 23rd August 2010, 14:37 Quote
Unfortunately, in games, at school, at work, in life, some people just enjoy ruining everyone else's fun.

I was in a game of GRID last night, racing F1000s on a ranked server. All of a sudden, one car turned into a touring car that had infinite grip and speed. Oh and the ability to jump 100 feet directly into the air. He proceeded to demolish everyone else's fragile car until he was the only one left.
spaceman1 23rd August 2010, 14:48 Quote
Cheaters only cheat themselves I used to play Americas Army all the time got very good at it too then got booted off a few servers as they did not like getting beat saying im using aimbot never heard of that b4 then.
Centy-face 23rd August 2010, 14:53 Quote
Modern Warfare 2 is an example of how a game can enable cheaters. There's no repercussions there's several wall hacks and things that are not vac detectable such as texture replacements and such so with no admins or kick votes and a steady stream of new unsuspecting victims they can't be stopped. I have been playing online deathmatches since the Quake wireplay days and have not encountered as many cheaters in that whole time as I have in less than a year with MW2.

Obviously the game isn't entirely to blame but it attracts cheaters more than most and as Stoney said they get their positive feedback from the game same as the genuinely good players. Thankfully the Server admin tool for MW2 is helping some of us take back the power and get rid of cheaters or atleast the obvious ones.

It's a bigger issue than 1 game though of course and I guess the reasons are the same as they are any where else. Some people just need attention even if it's negative they need to feel like they are good at something I don't know really because I suck most of the time.
DriftCarl 23rd August 2010, 14:56 Quote
I think cheaters aim isnt to "win" the game, but is more to piss everyone else right off. Kinda the same way where I was on a MP racing game, and some idiot started to flame me, then the regulars of the server joined in. I turned round and proceeded to drive the course backwards crashing into anyone I could find, just to piss them off.
I would never cheat in MP games, my main aim of shooters and strat games is to win by skill, and sometimes in SC2, cheese play.
I have been accused of cheating before, but since I wasnt, then it made me a little happier to think that people thougth I was as good as an autoaim bot.

However, I basically quit MW2 because of the amount of cheaters, and the fact you couldnt kick anyone from MW2 servers.

I have hated cheaters since the early CS days when I was admin of some Demon Games CS servers, it sure was fun being able to get rid of cheaters or even teleport their characters to rooms with no doors and only goatse pictuers on the walls.
erratum1 23rd August 2010, 14:59 Quote
You have to be a complete loser to need to cheat to win. Where's the satisfaction ?? I've never understood the point in playing at all if you need to cheat.
Kovoet 23rd August 2010, 15:01 Quote
I don't even want to get into this one as I might just start swearing. I wish I could get there ip addresses and do something about it as they ruin it for so many people or even just totally ban the ip's from all games or something
wuyanxu 23rd August 2010, 15:03 Quote
MW2 was designed to be a half arsed game that allows cheating. don't play it, come and play BFBC2 with real server admins and will kick+ban cheaters as soon as they see one.
sear 23rd August 2010, 15:30 Quote
People cheat in Modern Warfare 2 because they can. There are no repercussions for cheating, and while you can be detected, a lot of people just buy cheap game serials and put them on a new account every time they get banned; they're away from the game for half a day once VAC's done its job, if you're lucky.

Meanwhile, the hacks are becoming so advanced that it is literally possible to corrupt the profiles of any other users who join your game, causing their HUD to be scrambled, their stats to be ruined, all guns but the defaults to be locked out, etc. It's not just simple aimbots and wallhacks anymore, which are bad enough to begin with. The simple fact is that Infinity Ward is nearly dead and Activision have no intent of ever fixing the situation, instead simply betting that players will buy the next game and move on. I implore everyone here to not do such a thing.
rainbowbridge 23rd August 2010, 15:46 Quote
I'll give you my aim bot and porn spray when you take it from my cold, dead hands.
isaac12345 23rd August 2010, 15:56 Quote
IMO, It might be something to do with the cheat's result's psychological implications.
Xir 23rd August 2010, 16:18 Quote
I'm with you entirely.

for singleplayer, I understand. Roaming around doing silly thing is great.
That's what "garry's mod" is all about, for instance...even better than god-mode. :D

But for multiplayer, no point, just no point at all.
rainbowbridge 23rd August 2010, 16:35 Quote
People cheat because its FUN with a capital F for F u.

Im not swearing, I am just explaining the thinking behind it.

People cheat because it gives them a sense of power and satisifaction, killing others in an outlandish, complete, and richer way.

Its fun, funny, empowering and satisifiying.

If I could press a button to remove all cheating from all games I would press it, but cheating is as much a part of normal life as it is in gaming, so why remove an aspect of reality from unreality, just because the normal rules of play are being broken.

Go and ask insider traders if they like cheating, or con men.

Cheating is human nature, your all being untrue in your apprasial of this aspect of online gaming.


Hacking and cheating are short cuts to victory ultimate !
Er-El 23rd August 2010, 16:37 Quote
You changed the flag around on the second pic. Just trying to work out why...
CardJoe 23rd August 2010, 16:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Er-El
You changed the flag around on the second pic. Just trying to work out why...

Actually, I didn't. It was just the result of a quick google image search and I hadn't even noticed...
SteveU 23rd August 2010, 16:59 Quote
This is exactly why I prefer to game on my Xbox 360. Yes you still get people cheating but nothing like as much as on PC. You've also got a much more level playing field if you prefer to use a controller.

I'm probably gonna get flamed for those comments but hey, it's just my personal preference/opinion.
sub routine 23rd August 2010, 17:08 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowbridge
I'll give you my aim bot and porn spray when you take it from my cold, dead hands.

lol thats it though isn`t it....it`s the desire to become competitive or just plain outta site at a game without the need to actually be good at it.
I dont know why they dont just get an AI scripted bot and turn it upto ultra and not even take part.... `cause that`d be fun.
Fantus 23rd August 2010, 17:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveU
This is exactly why I prefer to game on my Xbox 360. Yes you still get people cheating but nothing like as much as on PC. You've also got a much more level playing field if you prefer to use a controller.

I'm probably gonna get flamed for those comments but hey, it's just my personal preference/opinion.

Cheating on a console tends to be a completely different thing to cheating on a PC. PC cheats are predominately hacks and mods, whereas a console cheat is along the lines of offering yourself self up to another player to boost kills (think Nuke Boosting
in MW2).
PC cheats, such as they are, is why I rarely pay multiplayer against people I don't know.
Sloth 23rd August 2010, 17:22 Quote
My suggestion: Play Killing Floor.

Multiplayer game which has almost no competitive aspect because everyone works together against NPCs? No cheaters.

Of course, that's not entirely true. I've heard/seen first hand reports of servers which will permanently increase one's perks to max level, yet that only brings a person up to the highest level they could legitimately be. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a Killing Floor wall hack or aim bot.

Cheaters just want to feel powerful, be it through winning, or ruining others' experience, or making people rage, or what-have-you. As long as there are people with low self-esteem playing games, there will be cheaters.
G0UDG 23rd August 2010, 17:27 Quote
As a long serving Admin in BF2 of 4 years plus I have banned numerous cheats from wall glichers to bunny hopping rabbits and others using software such as murdercheats 187ci,there seems to be a growing community of cheats in online gaming BF2 being one f the worst games for cheating as even server admins cheat on some servers.

At one point ehere was and still is a community calling themselves the cheats community dedicated to cheating and hacking servers therbye spoiling games for all the fare minded players,One player tag springs to mind Battlefield god one of the main ones within this community who got great pleasure just looking for servers with good fair playing admins running no cheat servers and crashing the servers then leaving before he could be banned having hacked into punkbuster posting bad language and a message sayig this is the cheaters community we control this server I am battlefield god you have been hacked by cheaters community seconds later the server crashes. how sad and stupid are these people in my opinion the fun in online or single player games is the challenge if a game is hard to beat persevere with it dont cheat sorry for the long rant i hate cheats of any kind that includes bunny hopping which in my humble opinion is cheating
altcon 23rd August 2010, 18:22 Quote
I was an admin on a CSS server for a while. The cheaters ranged from players who were good but wanted to be considered Legendary, to numnuts who had an aim bot that whirled their weapon around like mad, and had NO skill.
For the most part, cheaters are kiddies with Ego problems trying to look big, just like bullies in the playground.
I don't even play CSS anymore because I've grown tired of the cheating. These days I play on PRIVATE servers with my friends - saves all the endless cheating BS.
Creech 23rd August 2010, 18:29 Quote
Side Note: The Hidden is an awesome mod. Too bad there aren't more people that play.

Also, cheating in a multiplayer game is just stupid. I do not understand how it doesn't get ridiculously boring after a few times. Enjoyment in multiplayer games normally comes from actually being good at the game, or at least being bad at it with other people.
PingCrosby 23rd August 2010, 18:29 Quote
I once played naughts and crosses against myself and lost!...cos I later found out that I'd been cheating..honestly you can't even trust yourself these days. Having muliple personalitys is great when your bored cos you've always got someone to talk to but its a nightmare when you have to get the bus and have to pay 13 fares.
frontline 23rd August 2010, 18:44 Quote
People cheat for various reasons, however one of the most common you come across is the 'everyone else is doing it, so why shouldn't i?'

The other one is kids who start playing a game that others have been playing for years and want a short-cut to being as proficient as the veterans - they can't be bothered putting the hours in to practice.

I've played a few different multiplayer games competitively in organised leagues etc and can't stand those that would consider cheating to gain an advantage in something that is supposed to be fun and a test of ability.

The only reason that CS source is constantly in the top sellers is the number of vac banned cheaters purchasing their next 'hax' account...
Bakes 23rd August 2010, 19:47 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by G0UDG
As a long serving Admin in BF2 of 4 years plus I have banned numerous cheats from wall glichers to bunny hopping rabbits and others using software such as murdercheats 187ci,there seems to be a growing community of cheats in online gaming BF2 being one f the worst games for cheating as even server admins cheat on some servers.

The problem with this type of server administration is that many players view the tactics you talk about as legitimate.

Bunny hopping - just because it's not realistic doesn't mean it's cheating - it's not cheating in the way Joe's talking about since it's just doing anything anyone can do from a stock game.

MW2 was badly thought out in terms of cheating - VAC is good but when you can have cheats that just slowmo the game or give you godmode you know something's up - also there was a time when there was a CoD keygen that worked with Steam, which just meant that the non-instant bans could be completely mitigated.
Sloth 23rd August 2010, 20:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by frontline

The only reason that CS source is constantly in the top sellers is the number of vac banned cheaters purchasing their next 'hax' account...
Don't mean to get OT, but it's consistently one of the most played games on Steam. MW2 rivals it a bit, and 1.6 sometimes Source a run for its money, but people do play the game. Even with an arbitrary (yet I consider safe) 10% being cheaters you get more legitimate people playing CS:S at any given time than many other popular multiplayer games.
bogie170 23rd August 2010, 20:26 Quote
Cheaters don't last long on our servers. Pop on by some time COD4 COD WAW, COD2

http://www.oghf.org.uk/news.php
Woodspoon 23rd August 2010, 20:42 Quote
Cheating in multiplayer = Worthless and pointless.
Anyone can win with a cheat, there's no achievement, no achievement = no fun.
frontline 23rd August 2010, 21:02 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
Quote:
Originally Posted by frontline

The only reason that CS source is constantly in the top sellers is the number of vac banned cheaters purchasing their next 'hax' account...
Don't mean to get OT, but it's consistently one of the most played games on Steam. MW2 rivals it a bit, and 1.6 sometimes Source a run for its money, but people do play the game. Even with an arbitrary (yet I consider safe) 10% being cheaters you get more legitimate people playing CS:S at any given time than many other popular multiplayer games.

True - i didn't mean to suggest that the majority of CS Source players cheat, just that the game is so big that even if only 1% of people are cheating, there will always be the demand for a new purchase of the game and a new steam account.

I would imagine that the vast majority of the player base have been playing the game for a while though.
Niftyrat 23rd August 2010, 21:12 Quote
I don't play online for precisely this reason, games like COD are no fun when you are a noob and getting shot from the other side of a wall cause your opponents are cheating, I have seen rfactor races where people deliberately ram others. This is especially annoying if you are 100 laps into a race and some idiot decides they can't be bothered so they go all stupid.

Hence I play co-op mostly via LAN with my bro against ai yes it perhaps isn't as much of a challenge but at least we know they arn't cheating (except in rfactor where the damn ai needs serious looking at)
Spreadie 23rd August 2010, 23:31 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodspoon
Cheating in multiplayer = Worthless and pointless.
Anyone can win with a cheat, there's no achievement, no achievement = no fun.
They don't care!
They are either doing it purely to p!ss people off or, more commonly IMO, because they are stupid enough to believe that other players will think they are awesome; when they are actually sad deluded losers. I stopped playing MP when I started seeing wallhackers in TF2 going unchecked for hours, despite most of the server complaining.
chimaera 23rd August 2010, 23:35 Quote
I've never understood the mindset of a cheater - griefers I can kind of understand - I think its retarded but at least someone getting their jollies by ruining everyone else's fun makes at least some measure of sense.

But cheating to win - that just doesn't make sense to me - you can't have any sense of achievement in beating your opponents if you used some form of unfair advantage to get there.
Fabou 23rd August 2010, 23:45 Quote
People cheat in multiplayer game for the same reason they cheat in solo game, to feel strong without taking the time to learn. Or to piss people off have you never seen video of guy's exploiting burg to piss off a whole server on TF2? For exemple they used to have a TP sending you to enemy sentry or they used a glitche to block the spam door thus prevent the game to happen.
[D.v.F]Pay 24th August 2010, 00:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowbridge
People cheat because its FUN with a capital F for F u.

Im not swearing, I am just explaining the thinking behind it.

People cheat because it gives them a sense of power and satisifaction, killing others in an outlandish, complete, and richer way.

Its fun, funny, empowering and satisifiying.

If I could press a button to remove all cheating from all games I would press it, but cheating is as much a part of normal life as it is in gaming, so why remove an aspect of reality from unreality, just because the normal rules of play are being broken.

Go and ask insider traders if they like cheating, or con men.

Cheating is human nature, your all being untrue in your apprasial of this aspect of online gaming.


Hacking and cheating are short cuts to victory ultimate !

I think this tell all about what kind of person a cheater is.

The fist 30 days MW2 was a arsome game, then it startede to hav tomany cheaters, Im playing BCBF 2 now ( as Admin ) i know there is cheater -just look in youtube, but i seen any jet.
robots 24th August 2010, 00:53 Quote
Lol you just don't belong in online gaming. This said it all, "it was more an acknowledgement of futility than an act of anger". I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at the sad, mismatched situation you are in. People call it "rage quit" because they are too stupid to even understand what, "it was more an acknowledgement of futility than an act of anger" even means. To the average online gamer, that sentence wouldn't be any less understandable, if it was in ancient Hebrew.

There are a few rules you need to really come to terms with if you play online. Firstly, the average gamer is about 13. Secondly, the average gamer is an absolute moron. Thirdly, the average gamer is a total loser in real life, either has no friends, or just a few friends (who are just like him), and they certainly have never talked to a girl. Fourthly, they were badly raised by moron parents who don't really care about them and don't spend time on anything, so the kids, like the little sponges that they are, learned to behave from their peers, who sadly in this case, are other moronic little 13 year old online gamer losers.

So basically, you can't even reason with these kinds of people. They are beyond reason, because they are simply too stupid to even throw ideas and things around in their brains, and they are barely even able to communicate. All in all, I think it's best to just assume that most people you see in games, are not really people. They are more like some kind of furry sloth type animal from some remote island in the Indian ocean, that somehow managed to find itself in a Western family, and on the internet. It's not quite sure that it's actually playing a game, so it's fighting for it's survival like it's real life, and you are it's main predator. You could try to argue with it, but it will just grunt at you. You could kill it or abuse it, and that might make you feel better temporarily, but ultimately you will probably just feel sorry for it, when it looks up at you with it's pathetic little face, whiskers, shuffling in the breeze. Personally I just try to pretend that they are computer AI characters. It's like a kind of denial, I try to pretend they aren't even there.

The interesting/sad thing for me, is that I'm old enough that I've actually seen it all change. I was there on day 1 of the interweb, and it was a completely different experience. I used to play Quake with my speedy 33.6k modem. I didn't come across many foreign people because the pings were just too bad on international servers, so I mostly played with other Brits. The way people behaved was truly shocking compared to how it is today. Everyone called each other mate, and would laugh "haha" with each other. They would say, "Nice shot!" and were friendly with both their own team and the other team. They would say, "Night all" at the end of the session, and people, even strangers, would say Cya, or g'night.

After a while, mate became m8, and hehehe! became lol. "Nice shot!" became "ns", and "good game all!" became "gg". Another several months passed, and the "ns" and "gg" started becoming less and less common, and bickering started to appear.

Not long after that, I quit online FPS's and moved to EverQuest. That was the best vantage point of the decline of internet manners you could ever get. The early days of that game were an absolute dream, and everyone who played it in the first months of release, would say the same thing. Sadly, it will never be recreated again. Everyone chatted with each other, like they were writing home to mom. There was very little abbreviation, and everyone was friendly and respectful of each other. The game itself promoted it too, because it was so bloody difficult and brutal, people needed to work together just to survive. Strangers would team together and would have a good laugh together and a really nice time, and then everyone would add each other to their friends lists. Lots of long term friendships and relationships and marriages were started in that game, which is no surprise to me. Fast forward a year though, and it had completely changed. EverQuest had become a house hold name and every moron and his best moron buddy had joined the game looking to DoMiNaTe PpLz! The lameness spreads like a weird kind of plague through the game. People started being pricks to each other, and others stopped caring so much. It then all degenerates to the point where people just stop talking to each other, and there is no more chat anymore. People join guilds and it all becomes cliquey and people only talk to their own little clique, and f anyone else.

It was sad, but what was much sadder, is that this degeneration seemed to simultaneously happen on the rest of the internet at the same time too.

The way it is now, I can't even relate to most people online. I have to switch off from it all. I played WoW briefly and I still play other online games, but I just switch off from the chat completely. All I see is "Fail!" and, "U SUK! GEY!" and all that kind of thing. It's a real pity. It also has little to do with age too, as I've seen older people who are worse than any kid. Like the thread in the game section about these online RTS/Strategy kind of games, I've seen some real classic a.holes in that. I played the Heroes of Newerth Beta and it had voice coms so you could hear who was 12 years old, and who was 24 years old. The worst were the older ones for sure. The young kids were sometimes brattish but they were usually cute, and more interested in just playing, with the occasional bit of screwing around. The older ones were the worst though. People in their early 20's who think they are really special, and who take the games extremely seriously. Those people struck me as the worst of all. I think it may just be unavoidable now, unless you can play a game which has a small, private server community. I've played one game like that which was great for a few years, but the moderators slipped and manners slipped at the exact same time.
thehippoz 24th August 2010, 02:51 Quote
they're everywhere.. I used to run 2 cs servers back in the day and it was constant tweaking the admin mod back then to detect and blacklist keys.. even put in a chickenhead mod to turn suspected cheaters into chickens who couldn't shoot- all you heard was chicken noises and free frags

thing is in online leagues it sucks cause all those guys on top are hell of cheating.. we found that out in the ogl- played 2v2 and from rank 30 and up it was just every cheat in the book

I've tested a lot of the cheats and even found some on my own.. used to go into quake 2 with a modified ratbot that would send custom strings to the server so it wouldn't get detected- I only did it to slander certain people.. like I go in as another clans biggest d and then after fragging up a ridiculous number with rockets flying out of my butt- I'd spam their website and spew insults the whole time before logging out

go to their forum and watch the comedy.. I'd bring it in when a friend was on a roll too come to think of it.. he'd be setting a record too then bitch me out on icq.. wall hacks are pretty dirty but what's interesting is- you can learn a game so quick with a wall hack

you see how people play through the walls.. and even when not cheating you have that edge of knowing were people are at a certain time in maps.. in cs there was also a hack where you could make players glow bright green and red- that worked pretty well too and could get by punkbuster if the admin didn't take screens

I think the guys who go in and cheat to rack up a score and act legit.. they are total losers.. the griefing end of it is pretty funny imo
Furymouse 24th August 2010, 04:17 Quote
Cheating standard online MP ( strangers and what not ) = not cool

Cheating MP ( friends ) = Cool as long as people know

Cheating can be fun when its you and your friends being stupid and killing each other. But why you would do that against strangers is beyond me.
Reddoguk 24th August 2010, 04:51 Quote
I've been playing PC MP games for what seems like ever.

If like me you become part of a community, you learn which servers are well admined, honestly i haven't seen tons of cheaters. The list of FPS games i have played is pretty large.

I was a BF2 Leader/Admin for over 2 years. About 80% of the time it was really good players being accused of cheating. The games that stand out for me was 1. Black Hawk Down 2. CSS.

The thing is cheats in games like CSS are so obvious, you can see it from a mile off.

The good cheats are usually paid for, which is really sad. At the minute i'm lvl 48 in BFBC 2 and i've only ever seen a few cheats. The reason for that is i play on only 2 servers, those servers are very well admined, so even if someone has a paid for PBBans Proof cheat running they won't last long enough on the server to ruin anyones game.
south side sammy 24th August 2010, 06:02 Quote
I don't want to get you on my wrong side but first you chastise a player for cheating and then you say it's okay to cheat in single player because you find it tough to get past a certain point and then you say I can see a point where it's okay to cheat in MP.... something about making pyramids... ???? you're a hypocrite!
CardJoe 24th August 2010, 07:37 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by south side sammy
I don't want to get you on my wrong side but first you chastise a player for cheating and then you say it's okay to cheat in single player because you find it tough to get past a certain point and then you say I can see a point where it's okay to cheat in MP.... something about making pyramids... ???? you're a hypocrite!

I can have complex opinions without being a hypocrite, thankyouverymuch.

...actually, this isn't even a complex opinion.

Cheating in singleplayer if you want : Fine, because only you are affected. Distasteful to some, but ultimately down to personal choice and actually occasionally useful.

Playing in a server of cheaters : Fine, because everyone is doing it together and that's the point. I.e. making human pyramids or just goofing around.

Cheating in a normal server : Annoying and stupid, because everyone else is trying to play fairly and you end up ruining the game for the majority.

Don't see how it's that hard to understand, frankly.
B1GBUD 24th August 2010, 08:21 Quote
Quote:
it’s not exactly rare to hear cries of ‘HaX!’ ring through a server

Wait.... they have dedicated servers now?
Almightyrastus 24th August 2010, 08:25 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by south side sammy
I don't want to get you on my wrong side but first you chastise a player for cheating and then you say it's okay to cheat in single player because you find it tough to get past a certain point and then you say I can see a point where it's okay to cheat in MP.... something about making pyramids... ???? you're a hypocrite!

I can have complex opinions without being a hypocrite, thankyouverymuch.

...actually, this isn't even a complex opinion.

Cheating in singleplayer if you want : Fine, because only you are affected. Distasteful to some, but ultimately down to personal choice and actually occasionally useful.

Playing in a server of cheaters : Fine, because everyone is doing it together and that's the point. I.e. making human pyramids or just goofing around.

Cheating in a normal server : Annoying and stupid, because everyone else is trying to play fairly and you end up ruining the game for the majority.

Don't see how it's that hard to understand, frankly.

Spot on Joe,

I often cheat in single player games for two reasons:

1, I have never been a very good gamer, especially in situations where tricky parts have meant repeaig a large portion of that level or whatever. I have been known to give up entirely on a game I was previously enjoying due to getting stuck at some point.

2, I prefer the story to a challenge. For example, I used god mode pretty much all the way through Fallout 3 simply because I wanted to see all the story and everything else the game had in it without having to repeat any parts (see point number 1)

Cheating on a server where everyone else is and just doing things for S*&ts and giggles is fine, the whole point of playing games is to have fun and if that is fun and nobody is hurt/at a disadvantage then that has to get two thumbs up from me.

Chating in a multiplayer game where people are not using cheats however, is not on simply because it is unfair to those who want to play on a level field.

Having said all this, especially my bit about cheating in a single player game, what really annoys me is an attitude I often see in discussions about this topic and that is those people who insist that unless I play a game EXACTLY how they play it, be that no cheats or maximum-ultra-bleeding-eyeballs difficulty setting (for the challenge ) then I cannot possibly get as much enjoyment out of it as they can. It is something that has moved me away from a lot of multiplayer gaming, both things like MW2 and MMOs.
south side sammy 24th August 2010, 08:33 Quote
I do map and mod games. However, I never remember using any of my abilities to alter SP or MP game play. Not even playing on LAN at our parties with friends. There was never anything hidden so to speak. We always just "played" the game.
And the only way you'll know for sure if everybody has the same cheats is to be in the same room with them. And indeed I have been on many servers that do have cheats but not everybody does. This hurts the people who don't. I don't cheat and never had but to condone it isn't right IMO. Cheating ( other than monetary gains ) is probably one of the major factors in not allowing dedicated servers. Now the corporations want to run them. So far I don't see them doing any better at controlling cheats than you or I could. But I bet "we" could ban them quicker than what's being done now. Sorry to insult you but after many years of IDIOTS screwing with your games it really pisses me off to see a moderator say " AHhhh cheats, YES, they're ok.
mp3manager 24th August 2010, 08:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Martin
One of the only matches of Counter-Strike I ever enjoyed was one where everyone had cheats on and spent the game making human pyramids or towers

Was this you?

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/9313/finally1.jpg
G0UDG 24th August 2010, 08:56 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by G0UDG
As a long serving Admin in BF2 of 4 years plus I have banned numerous cheats from wall glichers to bunny hopping rabbits and others using software such as murdercheats 187ci,there seems to be a growing community of cheats in online gaming BF2 being one f the worst games for cheating as even server admins cheat on some servers.

The problem with this type of server administration is that many players view the tactics you talk about as legitimate.

Bunny hopping - just because it's not realistic doesn't mean it's cheating - it's not cheating in the way Joe's talking about since it's just doing anything anyone can do from a stock game.

MW2 was badly thought out in terms of cheating - VAC is good but when you can have cheats that just slowmo the game or give you godmode you know something's up - also there was a time when there was a CoD keygen that worked with Steam, which just meant that the non-instant bans could be completely mitigated.

The game designers try to get the games to be as close to reality as they can have you ever tried to hop while carrying a heavy weapon and ammunition, not to mention your backpack and what ever other equipment you have. Get real m8 hopping to avoid being killed in a game is lame and shows a complete lack of skill and no sense of fair play,and yes ive heard the there is no fair play in war argument for hopping rabbits that dont wash with me as I said try hopping with a heavy load of weaponry not possible I can assure you
djDEATH 24th August 2010, 09:23 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorTom
Unfortunately, in games, at school, at work, in life, some people just enjoy ruining everyone else's fun.

I was in a game of GRID last night, racing F1000s on a ranked server. All of a sudden, one car turned into a touring car that had infinite grip and speed. Oh and the ability to jump 100 feet directly into the air. He proceeded to demolish everyone else's fragile car until he was the only one left.

too many cheats on GRID, i left it a long time ago, to go into real sim racing. I'm sure SIMBIN games are even easier to hack than Codemasters, but it does seem that the sim nature of the game puts potential cheaters off. You just have to deal with crashers and idiots - a staple of any online racing game.

cheating doesn't do anything but enrage people, and i'm sure the "fun" as they would put it, is in getting the reaction from people when they realise they can't beat you. Swearing, shouting or even telling them the ins and outs of why cheating is bad just fuels their laughter.

One solution. Don't even tell them you know, just leave and find another server. Not even worth trying to drum up support for a kick in the chat lobby, it really isn't worth it. Leave them there, go somewhere else.
robots 24th August 2010, 10:32 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardJoe

Don't see how it's that hard to understand, frankly.

Refer to my post :P
[USRF]Obiwan 24th August 2010, 10:39 Quote
I never encounter a cheater in my single player games unless it is me after trying to get past a stage for the 60th time. :D

Back in the days I played European leagues TFC from 1998 till 2004 with my clan. Never noticed any cheaters. (or I did not care) On our own servers we left out the sniper character. What we enjoyed the most was TFC football and TFC puzzle mods. We invited other clans and most of the time these games lasted for 8 tot 9 hours straight from evening to morning just laughing our socks of. those where the days I can say.

I do not care anymore about MP games although sometimes i do play L4D1 and 2. I'm more a singleplayer guy nowadays. Must be the age or something....
bbshammo 24th August 2010, 10:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowbridge
People cheat because its FUN with a capital F for F u.

Im not swearing, I am just explaining the thinking behind it.

People cheat because it gives them a sense of power and satisifaction, killing others in an outlandish, complete, and richer way.

Its fun, funny, empowering and satisifiying.

If I could press a button to remove all cheating from all games I would press it, but cheating is as much a part of normal life as it is in gaming, so why remove an aspect of reality from unreality, just because the normal rules of play are being broken.

Go and ask insider traders if they like cheating, or con men.

Cheating is human nature, your all being untrue in your apprasial of this aspect of online gaming.


Hacking and cheating are short cuts to victory ultimate !

Your argument is great because it clearly highlights the deficiencies in the typical cheaters mind.

I'm not challenging anything you say, by the way, it's all correct; just offering a mature/reasoned perspective on it, as you clearly are unable to do so.

Also, in RL there are indeed cheats, and you'll notice when you grow up and come across these people that they generally don't get that far relative to their counterparts in the same environment. The reason? Never underestimate the power of cheated people in redressing the balance in real life.

In the gaming world, cheats get away because they can, and can't be traced, and most mechanisms to deal with them don't work.

imo, cheats are just people that are weaker than the rest of us on many levels.

They deserve pity as much as a server ban.

May I recommend what I do when I come across a blatant cheat?

I hawk said player like a bad fart for the rest of the game. It's a game in itself, trust me! It's so much fun changing sides, finding said noob, and just standing in front of him for the whole match. Takes some effort too, so there's still an element of challenge involved, and the reward of seeing said chump going nuts after a while and swearing etc... makes it all worth it.
Bakes 24th August 2010, 10:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by G0UDG
The game designers try to get the games to be as close to reality as they can have you ever tried to hop while carrying a heavy weapon and ammunition, not to mention your backpack and what ever other equipment you have. Get real m8 hopping to avoid being killed in a game is lame and shows a complete lack of skill and no sense of fair play,and yes ive heard the there is no fair play in war argument for hopping rabbits that dont wash with me as I said try hopping with a heavy load of weaponry not possible I can assure you

Seriously, no, most games are nowhere near close to reality and are not in any way designed to be. You're deluding yourself if you think they are. Play BF2 or CoD and then play ARMA II and you'll notice a clear difference in how realistic they are/aren't.

If you want to argue semantics - all of the really realistic games I've seen have not so much as had a jump function in the game.

Bunny hopping is irritating, but it's no more than using the game engine to your advantage - rather like CoD last stand. Compare this to an aimbot, where you're just letting a computer play for you, and you can hopefully see why bunny hoppers and dolphin divers are probably not the target of this blog post.

In terms of 'complete lack of skill' again, skill is definable, but most of the high end competition players do use bunny hopping - and bunny hopping isn't some magical thing that places you far above your abilities - that's what hacks do.
DbD 24th August 2010, 10:51 Quote
And you wonder why we all made such a fuss when they didn't allow dedicated servers or proper admin controls in MW2 - as I remember you didn't think it was that important?

Well it's not exactly a surprise is it?

In every game you can get cheats. The best solution is to have some favourite servers which are well admin'd where the cheats get banned fast. Only in MW2 you can't have your own servers, people can't add them as favourites, the admin commands were missing too. You were told that the anti cheat software would *catch* all the cheats. Yer, right. It's a cheats paradise.
B1GBUD 24th August 2010, 10:53 Quote
The only time bunny hopping annoys me is when it's done to reduce hit-boxes (I'm looking at you BF2/dolphin diving)

There is nothing better than gunning down said bunny-hopper and promptly tea-bagging their dead lifeless corpse..... mwuahahahaa
Javerh 24th August 2010, 11:00 Quote
Killing cheaters in-game gives the best kind of satisfaction.
bbshammo 24th August 2010, 11:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
Seriously, no, most games are nowhere near close to reality and are not in any way designed to be. You're deluding yourself if you think they are. Play BF2 or CoD and then play ARMA II and you'll notice a clear difference in how realistic they are/aren't.

If you want to argue semantics - all of the really realistic games I've seen have not so much as had a jump function in the game.

Bunny hopping is irritating, but it's no more than using the game engine to your advantage - rather like CoD last stand. Compare this to an aimbot, where you're just letting a computer play for you, and you can hopefully see why bunny hoppers and dolphin divers are probably not the target of this blog post.

In terms of 'complete lack of skill' again, skill is definable, but most of the high end competition players do use bunny hopping - and bunny hopping isn't some magical thing that places you far above your abilities - that's what hacks do.

Spot on.

There's not a single bit of similarity between jumpers/divers and cheats.

If you can jump repeatedly and dive then IT'S BECAUSE THE GAME WAS DESIGNED TO LET YOU DO SO!

Complaining about this is no different to complaining about getting shot in an MP FPS game!!

It's ridiculous.

Furthermore, I don't jump/dive as to be totally honest with myself, I find it takes a fair bit of effort and thought to change my game style to d so. Also, given I normally end matching these players without jumping/diving, I'm not that bothered if one gets the better of me now and then.

If the game lets you do it, it's fair.

Unless of course said aspect of the game is clearly flawed and everyone/most agree.

By that last point I mean certain games with user-generated maps, normally, where certain balances and checks can be missed by amateur modders.

For example, some maps in Arma 2 allow enemy players to spawn camp home-bases in conquest/hold location maps when they should have a large enough perimeter boundary to prevent this.
Bakes 24th August 2010, 11:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DbD
And you wonder why we all made such a fuss when they didn't allow dedicated servers or proper admin controls in MW2 - as I remember you didn't think it was that important?

Well it's not exactly a surprise is it?

In every game you can get cheats. The best solution is to have some favourite servers which are well admin'd where the cheats get banned fast. Only in MW2 you can't have your own servers, people can't add them as favourites, the admin commands were missing too. You were told that the anti cheat software would *catch* all the cheats. Yer, right. It's a cheats paradise.

Not entirely true - VAC would work fine - if it banned instantly. If cheat detection removed and blocked said player within a matter of minutes of them turning their hacks on, it would remove the vast majority of cheaters, who largely get banned anyway (though after a month).

What's worse than having your game ruined by a hacker is having your game ruined by an admin who thinks you're a hacker. It's happened before, and I'm sure that we've all had our games ruined by admins who just ban people because they feel like it, or they didn't speak the same language, or etc

Noone said that VAC would catch all the cheats - security is a journey, not a destination remember - but there are some deficiencies which mean that the banning process is not so legit player friendly as it could be.
ed_456 24th August 2010, 11:46 Quote
I've never been strong at FPSs, but I'd rather be a poor gamer with low stats than a poor gamer with high stats who hacked his way to the top. If you feel the need to cheat for the sake of a few numbers, you need a new perspective on life. Usually my stats are low, but I still feel proud when I kill someone or progress to the next rank, knowing that I don't need cheats to do that.
BRAWL 24th August 2010, 12:22 Quote
I don't care anymore... I log onto our TDM CoD4 server, Log into Rcon, slightest notion of stupidity from someone and they're kicked. They come back and hack some more... they're banned simple.

While my clan is very much all forms of hacking, I despise logging onto certain clans servers because the admins will sit there and ignore the PUBLIC's plee's of hackers and even kick me for saying it publically... So I return armed with my own bag of intellegence tricks and troll the crap out of the admin's until a point where they have some strange internet disease, believe me I'm good at it. Got someone arguing with me about the M4 Carbine the otherday, until he realised I was trying to describe a motorway...

Either way, I'll stick to joining games where my clan mates are, introducing myself as the loving caring anti-hack-christ and dominate all cheaters and hackers with my t-bag of infinate awesome.

Sound good?
lacuna 24th August 2010, 12:35 Quote
I hardly bother with MP at all anymore and would never buy a game for its MP element. If I do play then it would HL1 or Team Fortress Classic :)
Quote:
Or for allowing you to breeze through the incredibly repetitive last third of Doom 3.

I thought the game got a touch more interesting when you get to hell. I was, however, massively disappointed that I had saved up my ammo for hell, only to have it stripped away in transit. FML.
sp4nky 24th August 2010, 12:43 Quote
The thing is, different people define "cheating" in different ways. What one person calls as cheating, someone else just calls using game mechanics cleverly, and another thinks it's just normal.

Take for example the old bunny-hopping and dolphin-diving tactics in Battlefield 2. Some servers outlawed the practise, as demonstrated further up this thread, and kicked/banned people for using it. Other servers said using grenade launchers was cheating. Some even kicked you for using guns when they were having "knife-only" sessions, whereas others said "knife-only" was cheating. All are different variations on the rules of the game and what could be defined as cheating.

Now I present myself as an example. I'm 37 and I'm just starting out in Battlefield Bad Combat 2. I'm barely rank 8 so I don't have the unlocks that higher ranked players have. Their weapons do more damage than mine, their reactions are faster than mine, consequently my K/D ratio is less than 1. Would it be so wrong for me to use something to even up the odds, to help me play the game better?

I could upgrade my HDD - I could install the game on a SSD, so I would be one of the first to load each level, so I could get the tank or helo or get to a flag before the enemy. I could get a Killer NIC, thereby improving my reaction time through lowering my latency. I could improve my CPU, graphics card and speakers so I'd have better visuals and sound, making it easier to pinpoint the enemy using their shadows or footsteps. There's a lot I could do to improve my game using hardware. Would this be considered cheating?
djDEATH 24th August 2010, 13:03 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAWL
Either way, I'll stick to joining games where my clan mates are, introducing myself as the loving caring anti-hack-christ and dominate all cheaters and hackers with my t-bag of infinate awesome.

Sound good?

infinite awesome is spelled incorrectly. Infinite FAIL
BRAWL 24th August 2010, 13:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by djDEATH
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAWL
Either way, I'll stick to joining games where my clan mates are, introducing myself as the loving caring anti-hack-christ and dominate all cheaters and hackers with my t-bag of infinate awesome.

Sound good?

infinite awesome is spelled incorrectly. Infinite FAIL

Nih... so it is. My bad, I'm at work on my lunch hour so my cheese sarnie takes up a large percentage of my thinking power >.<
CharlO 24th August 2010, 14:12 Quote
I used to cheat In counter strike, with my friends, and they knew it. They would be walking by the pool and I appeared from a wall. It was mor for the laughs of me being a ghost, or everyone flying without gravity or taking friction off. Anyway if we played fair and squar I used to 5x the amount of frags they did altogether.
general22 24th August 2010, 14:59 Quote
Unfortunately from what I have seen everybody does cheat on MW2. It doesn't seem to be as tightly integrated with VAC as the source engine games are and doesn't seem to enforce some type of sv_pure 2 mode which most TF2 servers these days run.
calon 24th August 2010, 15:34 Quote
I started playing MW² a few weeks ago and although there often are outcries of " ### cheats! ### aimbot! ### hax!" and so on, I rarely have personnaly witnessed clear cases of cheating.

Truth be told, at first I thought there was a lot of cheating going on, but now that I start to know the maps pretty thoroughly and I've unlocked most of the perks / weapons and upgrades, I realize that a lot of those times when I thought the kill was shoddy were in fact just good knowledge and skill.

Nowadays, I even get people screaming that I'm wallhacking/aimboting whatever while I juste use ninja pro, a good headset and FMJ for exemple.

So, no, I don't say there is no cheating going on, I've seen some people who just chain headshooting people from half a map over, or grenading / tubing when there was positively no legitimate reason to do so, but it doesn't seem that rampant to me.

As for the motivation of the cheating I guess it's the same that push people who steal... I can't really say since I guess using cheats removes all the fun of most games... kinda like shooting rats in a barrel...
sp4nky 24th August 2010, 16:10 Quote
From what I have seen, very few people cheat on MW2. There are the occasional stat pushers that come on in pairs, one person killing the other repeatedly and then pushing the nuke button, but that is fairly rare now. It's pushing stats but is it cheating? They aren't modifying any code, they're just not playing the same game you are.

Actual cheats like wallhack or aimbot, I've not seen more than a handful in 300+ hours of MW2.
Whi7eRa66iT 24th August 2010, 17:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by G0UDG
i hate cheats of any kind that includes bunny hopping which in my humble opinion is cheating

Seriously?? You count bunny hopping as cheating? Back when dolphin diving was being used, I would agree with you but now?
Next time, I will make sure to stand very still so you can shoot me.

Running a cham or hack is a great blight on gaming but HOW IS jumping CHEATING again???

:(
G0UDG 24th August 2010, 18:43 Quote
I have to admit its great fun teabagging cheats especially if said cheat hates being teabagged that fact alone makes it more fun
bhougha1 24th August 2010, 19:19 Quote
You know the funny things is that a lot of low class players accuse everyone of hacking. It' like hey, your better then me, you must be hacking.
I was accused of hacking so often in Crysis that at least 2 clan members left.
If someone is flying around the map in a FPS game, call them a hack, but until you know they are hacking for sure, assume it's possible someone has more skill then you.
I think the majority of people know that hackers are losers, so there is no way you can help them understand that what they are doing is wrong.
jimmyjj 24th August 2010, 20:41 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by robots

The interesting/sad thing for me, is that I'm old enough that I've actually seen it all change. I was there on day 1 of the interweb, and it was a completely different experience. I used to play Quake with my speedy 33.6k modem. I didn't come across many foreign people because the pings were just too bad on international servers, so I mostly played with other Brits. The way people behaved was truly shocking compared to how it is today. Everyone called each other mate, and would laugh "haha" with each other. They would say, "Nice shot!" and were friendly with both their own team and the other team. They would say, "Night all" at the end of the session, and people, even strangers, would say Cya, or g'night.

After a while, mate became m8, and hehehe! became lol. "Nice shot!" became "ns", and "good game all!" became "gg". Another several months passed, and the "ns" and "gg" started becoming less and less common, and bickering started to appear.

Not long after that, I quit online FPS's and moved to EverQuest. That was the best vantage point of the decline of internet manners you could ever get. The early days of that game were an absolute dream, and everyone who played it in the first months of release, would say the same thing. Sadly, it will never be recreated again. Everyone chatted with each other, like they were writing home to mom. There was very little abbreviation, and everyone was friendly and respectful of each other. The game itself promoted it too, because it was so bloody difficult and brutal, people needed to work together just to survive. Strangers would team together and would have a good laugh together and a really nice time, and then everyone would add each other to their friends lists. Lots of long term friendships and relationships and marriages were started in that game, which is no surprise to me. Fast forward a year though, and it had completely changed. EverQuest had become a house hold name and every moron and his best moron buddy had joined the game looking to DoMiNaTe PpLz! The lameness spreads like a weird kind of plague through the game. People started being pricks to each other, and others stopped caring so much. It then all degenerates to the point where people just stop talking to each other, and there is no more chat anymore. People join guilds and it all becomes cliquey and people only talk to their own little clique, and f anyone else.

It was sad, but what was much sadder, is that this degeneration seemed to simultaneously happen on the rest of the internet at the same time too.

The way it is now, I can't even relate to most people online. I have to switch off from it all. I played WoW briefly and I still play other online games, but I just switch off from the chat completely. All I see is "Fail!" and, "U SUK! GEY!" and all that kind of thing. It's a real pity. It also has little to do with age too, as I've seen older people who are worse than any kid. Like the thread in the game section about these online RTS/Strategy kind of games, I've seen some real classic a.holes in that. I played the Heroes of Newerth Beta and it had voice coms so you could hear who was 12 years old, and who was 24 years old. The worst were the older ones for sure. The young kids were sometimes brattish but they were usually cute, and more interested in just playing, with the occasional bit of screwing around. The older ones were the worst though. People in their early 20's who think they are really special, and who take the games extremely seriously. Those people struck me as the worst of all. I think it may just be unavoidable now, unless you can play a game which has a small, private server community. I've played one game like that which was great for a few years, but the moderators slipped and manners slipped at the exact same time.

Sorry to quote such a long post, but you have hit the nail so very squarely on the head in my opinion.

The problem with the internet is that it is full of real people, and just as in real life a lot of people are idiots. I am afraid it is a social disease that can not be solved by anti cheat systems.

With regards to the technical elements, when a game is produced with multiplayer as a major component then it should be a design priority from day one to code the game with anti-cheating in mind.

I can not believe that technically speaking it is unsolvable, it merely requires the appropriate resources to be dedicated to it.
MSHunter 24th August 2010, 22:38 Quote
For me the worst aspect of cheaters is that:
If you are much better then the "average" player every one thinks automatically your are cheating. Especially when you use "non standard tactics" and methods of winning people have not seen before.
Glix 24th August 2010, 23:29 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSHunter
For me the worst aspect of cheaters is that:
If you are much better then the "average" player every one thinks automatically your are cheating. Especially when you use "non standard tactics" and methods of winning people have not seen before.

Like tracing people through walls and turning to look straight at someone who was silently approaching. xD Sorry couldn't help but finish off your post.
thehippoz 25th August 2010, 02:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhougha1
You know the funny things is that a lot of low class players accuse everyone of hacking. It' like hey, your better then me, you must be hacking.
I was accused of hacking so often in Crysis that at least 2 clan members left.
If someone is flying around the map in a FPS game, call them a hack, but until you know they are hacking for sure, assume it's possible someone has more skill then you.
I think the majority of people know that hackers are losers, so there is no way you can help them understand that what they are doing is wrong.

we used to run a german made admin mod.. there was an alliance setup (cs server admins mostly) that concentrated on improving the anti cheat detection in the mod itself

the guy who wrote it had aimbot detection written where if a person was so far off the mark before firing a headshot- or any shot really it would trip and he would be kick banned automatically

the problem with that was.. some really good players- including myself were getting caught on occasion because we would flick shoot a lot.. so I suggested we put in a counter over the sensitivity tweak he already had in it

it worked so well.. could almost leave the server without an admin to police- so let's say a guys good and he can do 180's and get headshots.. it would flag- now if he did that 4 or 5 times (however many the admin wanted to set), then the server would auto kick ban his key and alert everyone

the chances of someone pulling off these shots to trip the detector over 4 times a game was very slim and we considered it a good way to catch aim bots.. I'm not sure what they run today- but that used to work well.. I know what your talking about.. I used to stick to my own servers because I'd get banned and wasn't cheating

it's been like that for quite awhile.. admins in servers can serve a role still in catching the wall hackers.. remember punkbuster had a way to capture screenshots of a players screen- so the player would be kick and temp banned by an admin.. could review his screens later for a permanent.. what a pain in the ass though
Jipa 25th August 2010, 07:48 Quote
I have never cheated online and never will. I can't understand the point and have quite a lot of personal hatred against all the damn idiots who have ruined the fun from a match over the years.

That said, luckily it isn't such a huge problem if you just choose a good server with admins and/or vote kick. In MW2 this obviously won't work, but the online of that game is going to suck anyway even without cheaters,so just switch it to something else.

I also share some hatred towards the idiots who keep calling everyone better than them cheaters. Also the admins who've KB'd me for wallhacking.
Hamish 25th August 2010, 13:00 Quote
my personal theory is that a large number of gamers are literally terrified of dying in a game
this explains many mp gaming behaviours such as camping, sniping and cheating
:p
Xir 25th August 2010, 13:30 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by PingCrosby
I once played naughts and crosses against myself and lost!...cos I later found out that I'd been cheating..honestly you can't even trust yourself these days. Having muliple personalitys is great when your bored cos you've always got someone to talk to but its a nightmare when you have to get the bus and have to pay 13 fares.

You don#t have to, you want to. :D
ONLY YOU know you're cheating the bus company when all thirteen of you ride but to an outsider you look like just one person.

I've got voices in my Head! and they don't like me
Sloth 25th August 2010, 20:01 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehippoz
we used to run a german made admin mod.. there was an alliance setup (cs server admins mostly) that concentrated on improving the anti cheat detection in the mod itself

the guy who wrote it had aimbot detection written where if a person was so far off the mark before firing a headshot- or any shot really it would trip and he would be kick banned automatically

the problem with that was.. some really good players- including myself were getting caught on occasion because we would flick shoot a lot.. so I suggested we put in a counter over the sensitivity tweak he already had in it

it worked so well.. could almost leave the server without an admin to police- so let's say a guys good and he can do 180's and get headshots.. it would flag- now if he did that 4 or 5 times (however many the admin wanted to set), then the server would auto kick ban his key and alert everyone

the chances of someone pulling off these shots to trip the detector over 4 times a game was very slim and we considered it a good way to catch aim bots.. I'm not sure what they run today- but that used to work well.. I know what your talking about.. I used to stick to my own servers because I'd get banned and wasn't cheating

it's been like that for quite awhile.. admins in servers can serve a role still in catching the wall hackers.. remember punkbuster had a way to capture screenshots of a players screen- so the player would be kick and temp banned by an admin.. could review his screens later for a permanent.. what a pain in the ass though
Came across a server in Pirates, Vikings and Knights II that would automatically kick people who were banned from a certain amount of other servers. Ran a little check on a person's Steam ID I suppose. Myself and two friends try to join... 10 seconds later only one is still in the server.
thehippoz 25th August 2010, 21:09 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth
Came across a server in Pirates, Vikings and Knights II that would automatically kick people who were banned from a certain amount of other servers. Ran a little check on a person's Steam ID I suppose. Myself and two friends try to join... 10 seconds later only one is still in the server.

oh yeah blacklisted keys.. I never did that to my servers- there was a universal database of keys you could add of known cheaters that was updated regularly.. if you know what your doing you don't need that

and it looks like it has the same issues with banning good players still.. surprised I would have thought they would have implemented a lot of the ideas from admin mod into other anti cheat by now.. guess some things never change

banning by key works because they have to buy another key to get back in.. not just change ips.. problem is like you just said- a legit player gets banned for whatever reason- he's lost it on other servers
DbD 25th August 2010, 23:45 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
Not entirely true - VAC would work fine - if it banned instantly. If cheat detection removed and blocked said player within a matter of minutes of them turning their hacks on, it would remove the vast majority of cheaters, who largely get banned anyway (though after a month).

What's worse than having your game ruined by a hacker is having your game ruined by an admin who thinks you're a hacker. It's happened before, and I'm sure that we've all had our games ruined by admins who just ban people because they feel like it, or they didn't speak the same language, or etc

Noone said that VAC would catch all the cheats - security is a journey, not a destination remember - but there are some deficiencies which mean that the banning process is not so legit player friendly as it could be.

You do have some negatives on random admin'd servers but that's not where the real advantage lies in dedicated servers. You don't go to random servers, you get some servers you know and trust on your favourites and play there. After a while you start to get to know the regs, then you might find they have a community forum/irc which you join. Then the game is even more fun as you know most of the people playing. You then meet at lans, have a pint. I still frequent forums for games I stopped playing years ago just cause I know everyone there.

All of this is missing from MW2, it's more then just cheat protection, it's taken the soul out of gaming.
Bakes 26th August 2010, 00:04 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DbD
You do have some negatives on random admin'd servers but that's not where the real advantage lies in dedicated servers. You don't go to random servers, you get some servers you know and trust on your favourites and play there. After a while you start to get to know the regs, then you might find they have a community forum/irc which you join. Then the game is even more fun as you know most of the people playing. You then meet at lans, have a pint. I still frequent forums for games I stopped playing years ago just cause I know everyone there.

All of this is missing from MW2, it's more then just cheat protection, it's taken the soul out of gaming.

Yes, that's what I do, I have my list and I play on them.

On the other hand, it's not what your typical CoD player does - they click join game and want to be in a game, able to do whatever they want - they're casual gamers, and they form the bulk of CoD sales - it's one of the reasons why matchmaking is used so much on consoles.

Some dedicated server games are different - in BFBC2 you aren't allowed to limit the use of (say) the Carl Gustav in ranked matches, and there are all sorts of rules to prevent stat padding and the like - server owners or gsps can lose their licenses/servers if they flaunt the rules, and this is good. Nevertheless, for the casual player who just clicks play on the lowest ping server with people in (me to an extent in some games) and who wants a no-holds-barred match, the way that admins are allowed to basically just remove anyone they want for any reason they want is a pretty large barrier for numerous people I know.
Sleepy Ben 27th August 2010, 10:27 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by south side sammy
I don't want to get you on my wrong side but first you chastise a player for cheating and then you say it's okay to cheat in single player because you find it tough to get past a certain point and then you say I can see a point where it's okay to cheat in MP.... something about making pyramids... ???? you're a hypocrite!

To put it simply - if someone is a victim of cheating then its a form of abuse and therefore a crime or sin against another. In singleplayer there is no victim - nor is there if *everyone* is goofing off so its all about thinking through the consequences of your actions.
wiggles 27th August 2010, 12:11 Quote
I think a lot of weak gamers cannot accept the idea that some players are so much better than them so they accept that they must cheat. This in turn leads to them cheating which is probably why the person mentioned that "everyone did it".
ABUSIVEMANGO 27th August 2010, 16:46 Quote
I loathe MP cheaters - I'm a avid player on COD MW2 PS3, and these little parasites annoy me to no end- I can accept the computer spawns me 3 ft from an opponent sometimes,Or my connection is flaky- But what talent or skill does it show to use the gliches in games to cheat their ratio or avoid playing the game fairly -.

I've personally come across several ppl in free for all's killing each other to get the nuclear strike perk - I made it my mission in the whole game to kill them both till they left - (and they did) .Cheating or rather using glitches shows no skill,no sense of fair play.

On the old Xbox360 i used to report the player instantly for cheating- wither anything actually came abt it is doubtful. But I recognise better players, I accept ppl being better than me -.

Companies need to be more responsible for the effected games. It 's not that hard to release patches for any well known glitches. It just shows a lack of quality from the company.
ubiquity 28th August 2010, 00:01 Quote
Cheating seems to be most prevalent in FPS games, and since with these games you do not pay a monthly fee to play online, the developer does not develop bug fixes quickly enough to fix the problems. As soon as they do, another hack is developed.

PC versions have the most hacks, and attempts to stop cheating by software such as punkbuster just add to the problem, as it is a challenge for the hackers to circumvent them, resulting in players mistakenly believing the server is free of cheats.

While FPS mutliplayer games work best on PC, I now find myself playing ps3 versions online as these have marginally less cheaters on them, and when the cheaters are exposes they can have their accounts terminated...
whamio 30th August 2010, 03:53 Quote
there is no greater pleasure then sticking it out with a cheater and learning how to beat him cheat n all. and then rubbing his face in it. get them pissed off and watch him run ... they usually ban you if they can before you completely humiliate them though

tea bag them all
i agree it's easier to leave the game....cheaters = play alone
whamio 30th August 2010, 04:04 Quote
maybe they should handle it like vegas...find a cheater and ban him from all mp, every time they show up the penalty gets worse... say a digital finger print sent to all current and any new games
....they are causing folks to lose and or waste money
leveller 30th August 2010, 09:57 Quote
The thing that gets me REALLY excited these days is MS, Valve and Rockstar publicly humiliating and banning the cheats.

Can you imagine having not just a game banned, but your whole account, your physical console ... Awesome stuff.
Glix 30th August 2010, 16:40 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
The thing that gets me REALLY excited these days is MS, Valve and Rockstar publicly humiliating and banning the cheats.

Can you imagine having not just a game banned, but your whole account, your physical console ... Awesome stuff.

Yeah fantastic, till that gets used against you...

In a perfect world there would be no cheats. But in this world of malware/trojans/viruses your account could be a few clicks and a keypresses away from being stolen. It's a problem that Steam Support have to wade through a lot.

How do you prove it wasn't you or your pc that had the cheats?
DraigUK 31st August 2010, 22:13 Quote
Cheating, no matter what game or format, ruins the game for the vast majority who do not cheat.

Until devs take it more seriously, really plan for it, enforce very harsh penalties for it, then it will continue.

Ban them and their whole account, their IP address and their credit card/payment method FOR GOOD, from any future games, and share that information with other game developers who will take teh same action to them, is the only way to deal with the majority of "casual" cheats.

You will never stop the "hardcore" cheats, but you can, and should, cut down on the majority of it with very harsh penalties indeed, and not cave into the whining, and make it as difficult as possible, and expensive for those who continue to do it.

I blame those who cheat for being so lame to do it in the first place; but a close second comes the developers and publishers for not taking far swifter and harsher action against them, and also for not getting together as an industry and agreeing joint and harsh action.
Glix 1st September 2010, 16:21 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by DraigUK
Cheating, no matter what game or format, ruins the game for the vast majority who do not cheat.

Until devs take it more seriously, really plan for it, enforce very harsh penalties for it, then it will continue.

Ban them and their whole account, their IP address and their credit card/payment method FOR GOOD, from any future games, and share that information with other game developers who will take teh same action to them, is the only way to deal with the majority of "casual" cheats.

You will never stop the "hardcore" cheats, but you can, and should, cut down on the majority of it with very harsh penalties indeed, and not cave into the whining, and make it as difficult as possible, and expensive for those who continue to do it.

I blame those who cheat for being so lame to do it in the first place; but a close second comes the developers and publishers for not taking far swifter and harsher action against them, and also for not getting together as an industry and agreeing joint and harsh action.


Valve mistakenly banned people, how robust would your idea be in the real world? How easy would it be to reverse the false bans?
leveller 1st September 2010, 16:55 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glix
Yeah fantastic, till that gets used against you...

In a perfect world there would be no cheats. But in this world of malware/trojans/viruses your account could be a few clicks and a keypresses away from being stolen. It's a problem that Steam Support have to wade through a lot.

How do you prove it wasn't you or your pc that had the cheats?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glix
Valve mistakenly banned people, how robust would your idea be in the real world? How easy would it be to reverse the false bans?

Nobody wants cheats in their online gaming. I think the cheats are starting to understand that

That makes me happy :D Someone having their account stolen and banned makes me :(

As for a stolen account being wrongfully VAC/PB banned, that comes down to Valve implementing necessary checks to work out if the account is being accessed from the wrong IP, the wrong ISP, the wrong MAC address, the wrong country, no stored key on the PC ... there are loads of things Valve can do to prevent security breaches and I'm sure they've thought of them all and will provide as much as they can in the future.
Glix 5th September 2010, 01:22 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
Nobody wants cheats in their online gaming. I think the cheats are starting to understand that

That makes me happy :D Someone having their account stolen and banned makes me :(

As for a stolen account being wrongfully VAC/PB banned, that comes down to Valve implementing necessary checks to work out if the account is being accessed from the wrong IP, the wrong ISP, the wrong MAC address, the wrong country, no stored key on the PC ... there are loads of things Valve can do to prevent security breaches and I'm sure they've thought of them all and will provide as much as they can in the future.

There are easy holes, like players who use net cafe's to play. How do you know that player has finally got an internet connection so is no longer playing from the cafe. And similar applies to IP or PC MAC addresses. I use my steam account across multiple pc's. I'd hate to have Valve ban me because I changed address/pc/played at a lan at friends or a real lan.
Bakes 5th September 2010, 01:36 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glix
There are easy holes, like players who use net cafe's to play. How do you know that player has finally got an internet connection so is no longer playing from the cafe. And similar applies to IP or PC MAC addresses. I use my steam account across multiple pc's. I'd hate to have Valve ban me because I changed address/pc/played at a lan at friends or a real lan.

What he means is that if you are connecting from the UK most of the time and then one time you connect from Bosnia, at which time you are clearly hacking (and are caught by VAC), you should not be banned (at the moment, you are). It obviously wasn't you in Bosnia (you were in the UK) so Valve could be lenient and not ban you, or force a revalidation (ie enter credit card details or game serial key)
leveller 5th September 2010, 10:22 Quote
Glix.

You need to open your mind wider. Why would Valve ban your account because you go on holiday and access your account from a different country? Why would Valve ban you because you access your account from a different PC?

Or rather, the question should be - you need to explain how Valve would know it is still you making those accesses. When you've answered that question then you have cancelled out your own fears.

The security threads on the Steam forums are well-debated and make interesting reading. Everything I've mentioned is there to be read-up on.
Glix 6th September 2010, 00:48 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
Glix.

You need to open your mind wider. Why would Valve ban your account because you go on holiday and access your account from a different country? Why would Valve ban you because you access your account from a different PC?

Or rather, the question should be - you need to explain how Valve would know it is still you making those accesses. When you've answered that question then you have cancelled out your own fears.

The security threads on the Steam forums are well-debated and make interesting reading. Everything I've mentioned is there to be read-up on.

Number one rule in computing security: Never trust the client. :)
That's why I think that getting tough on cheats by absolute banning won't work. They won't be able to implement a perfect system to stamp out the lengths some cheaters are willing to go for their 2 weeks of fame.
Glix 6th September 2010, 00:53 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes
What he means is that if you are connecting from the UK most of the time and then one time you connect from Bosnia, at which time you are clearly hacking (and are caught by VAC), you should not be banned (at the moment, you are). It obviously wasn't you in Bosnia (you were in the UK) so Valve could be lenient and not ban you, or force a revalidation (ie enter credit card details or game serial key)

Your assuming for the one case though. Go to pb bans. There are cheaters in the UK as well.
This case doesn't work when the cheater/thief originates from the same country as you.
leveller 6th September 2010, 09:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glix
Your assuming for the one case though. Go to pb bans. There are cheaters in the UK as well.
This case doesn't work when the cheater/thief originates from the same country as you.

But as you rightly agree, it DOES work for every other country outside of the UK. In fact I can probably narrow that down right now to a node in Milton Keynes. So, assuming there are auto-checks in place that use a form of simple (see bank checks) AI to build a users usage pattern, it would be fair to say that after 50 account accesses from (let's keep it simple) the UK - when 1 account access occurs in the US, that should trigger an account confirmation process. You agree. That's great! The MAC and IP locks can build simple usage patterns as well. None of the ideas are perfect, but it all helps improve our security.

Valve has been banning cheats since 2002. You are safe in their hands ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
As of 2010, unofficial sources estimate that over a million Steam accounts have been banned by the VAC system.

I don't need to remind any old-timers how crap the original CS became with cheats. It was rife. It was a nightmare at times and unplayable. It also created an atmosphere of paranoia that was possibly even more damaging than the actual cheats. A paranoia that exists in current games.

Will streaming game services be the saviour?
Glix 6th September 2010, 18:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by leveller
But as you rightly agree, it DOES work for every other country outside of the UK. In fact I can probably narrow that down right now to a node in Milton Keynes. So, assuming there are auto-checks in place that use a form of simple (see bank checks) AI to build a users usage pattern, it would be fair to say that after 50 account accesses from (let's keep it simple) the UK - when 1 account access occurs in the US, that should trigger an account confirmation process. You agree. That's great! The MAC and IP locks can build simple usage patterns as well. None of the ideas are perfect, but it all helps improve our security.

Valve has been banning cheats since 2002. You are safe in their hands ;)



I don't need to remind any old-timers how crap the original CS became with cheats. It was rife. It was a nightmare at times and unplayable. It also created an atmosphere of paranoia that was possibly even more damaging than the actual cheats. A paranoia that exists in current games.

Will streaming game services be the saviour?

Only time will tell. Streaming has it's own issues, which make it almost impossible to be played competitively using that service.

Good old screenshots and 3rd party obscure anti cheat clients seem to be the answer for now with a cup of common sense (hmm no flashes or nades when the team are at spawn, interesting :D).
hyperion 7th September 2010, 17:54 Quote
I only cheat in MMOs... but MMOs have no winners anyway.
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