bit-tech.net

Help - We've Run out of IP Addresses!

Comments 1 to 25 of 63

Reply
V3ctor 3rd June 2011, 08:12 Quote
That Netscape image brings me memories... :D
x5pilot 3rd June 2011, 08:24 Quote
Great article... Thanks!
mucgoo 3rd June 2011, 08:49 Quote
What would happen if we were to stick to ip4 and run out? What would be the effect?
SexyHyde 3rd June 2011, 08:58 Quote
Drug dealers would have to use one phone.
TheLegendJoe 3rd June 2011, 09:04 Quote
@mucgoo New devices wouldn't be able to connect to the internet (eg a new router)
tehBoris 3rd June 2011, 09:05 Quote
The IPv4 protocol will never die (well, may be in a few hundred years, by which time IPv6 may be on the way out), it is far too wide spread and implemented in so many devices for it to go away. Fortunately IPv6 has a whole subnet reserved for backwards compatibility with IPv4. Ultimately we don't need to ditch IPv4, we just need to adopt IPv6.
icanfly 3rd June 2011, 09:16 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehBoris
The IPv4 protocol will never die (well, may be in a few hundred years, by which time IPv6 may be on the way out), it is far too wide spread and implemented in so many devices for it to go away. Fortunately IPv6 has a whole subnet reserved for backwards compatibility with IPv4. Ultimately we don't need to ditch IPv4, we just need to adopt IPv6.
long time ago. we havent believe what is happen. but I agreen with your advice,.

so good luck
The_Jonas 3rd June 2011, 10:25 Quote
My roommate thought this was the end of the world. He actually thought we'd run out on 21/12/12 and that all technology would stop working... And apparently his uncle who is some kind of IT specialist *cough yeah right* backed it up with data; utter codswallop in my opinion.

On topic; I don't think the move to IPv6 will be that hard, we'll implement it fairly easily, might take some time though... but it will happen.
FelixTech 3rd June 2011, 10:28 Quote
whatismyip.com is going to need a redesign!
PingCrosby 3rd June 2011, 10:41 Quote
Its the end of the digital world....repent ye digital sinners.
RichCreedy 3rd June 2011, 10:59 Quote
bt have already started ipv6 rollout with their new bthomehub3
Digibull 3rd June 2011, 11:38 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by mucgoo
What would happen if we were to stick to ip4 and run out? What would be the effect?

ISPs would no longer be able to assign addresses to new hosts. The net would stop growing and there would be battles over DHCP assigned addresses with consumer connections.
Quote:
There is no immediate replacement for IPv6 on the horizon,' he says, 'so we need to be careful with how we allocate IPv6 addresses.' He likens an IPv6 address to a grain of sand. 'We can't just assume that we can give out whole beaches at a time,' he points out, 'just because there are so many sand grains on it – then we will run out as well.'

Even though yes, IPv6 does have a limit on avaliable addresses so assigning these addresses would need to be correctly controlled, you would still need to assign an address to every grain of sand on the planet before you ran out of avaliable public addresses. If the IANA worked the way it does at the moment then it would be assiging a square metre of a single beach to ISPs at a time, which means it would take decades upon decades before people even needed to think about a 256bit address to upgrade to.
faugusztin 3rd June 2011, 11:43 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehBoris
The IPv4 protocol will never die (well, may be in a few hundred years, by which time IPv6 may be on the way out), it is far too wide spread and implemented in so many devices for it to go away. Fortunately IPv6 has a whole subnet reserved for backwards compatibility with IPv4. Ultimately we don't need to ditch IPv4, we just need to adopt IPv6.

Show me a device at your home with no IPv6 support. Home users are pretty much totally prepared for IPv6, it is the network infrastructure of the Internet itself which here and there have old IPv4 only hardware.
Adnoctum 3rd June 2011, 11:57 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehBoris
The IPv4 protocol will never die (well, may be in a few hundred years, by which time IPv6 may be on the way out), it is far too wide spread and implemented in so many devices for it to go away. Fortunately IPv6 has a whole subnet reserved for backwards compatibility with IPv4. Ultimately we don't need to ditch IPv4, we just need to adopt IPv6.

I disagree with this strongly.

The interviewee in this article is correct regarding the turnover of end devices making IPv4 redundant. Soon, the only devices IPv4-only will be those that are in an isolated, disconnected network or those belonging to those luddites who can't wrap their head around IPv6. Another set of devices that *might* be stuck on IPv4 are those that are embedded in control systems for long-lived equipment or infrastructure (an example might be a power station control system) that cannot be upgraded. In these isolated cases, extraordinary efforts and the associated costs are justified, but even then the system won't be utilised for more than a few decades before being replaced with IPv6 equipment. Having said this, most control systems made within the last 15 years *should* be based on COTS-equipment for cost reasons, and these should be fairly easily updated.

The transition period won't be too long, if only because the efforts of trying to make IPv6 devices and networks work with/over IPv4 networks is a serious pain in the backside. Eventually, IPv6-based Internet providers and network administrators aren't going to want to expend the time and expense accommodating those who don't move over and the IPv4 users will be an unconnected backwater.

Consumer devices: I give IPv4 10 years to completely disappear.
Corporate devices: 15 years.
Everywhere else: 20 years.

Any IPv4 devices will be either be unconnected or completely irrelevant in 20 years.
Tibby 3rd June 2011, 11:57 Quote
Could we not just add one more ocetet to the tag denoting country? Isn't there just under 200 countries? Should stay under 254 easily...
faugusztin 3rd June 2011, 12:07 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibby
Could we not just add one more ocetet to the tag denoting country? Isn't there just under 200 countries? Should stay under 254 easily...

No, it's not enough. Just think - now we have computers and phones connected to the internet, that is usually 1-5 devices per family. Now imagine when your fridge, your lock, your security camers, your ebook reader, your TV, your radio, your lights, your "insert other electronics name here" will be all connected to the internet.
Digibull 3rd June 2011, 12:11 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
No, it's not enough. Just think - now we have computers and phones connected to the internet, that is usually 1-5 devices per family. Now imagine when your fridge, your lock, your security camers, your ebook reader, your TV, your radio, your lights, your "insert other electronics name here" will be all connected to the internet.

Just to add, they'll be directly connected to the internet rather than NATed through a router.
SpAceman 3rd June 2011, 12:24 Quote
I might check in with my ISP to see if they have any plans to switch to IPv6 any time soon..
Buck_Rogers25 3rd June 2011, 12:25 Quote
Some interesting comments in here, also some concerning ones. I'm afraid I agree, anyone who thinks ipv6 isn't needed or won't replace ipv4 is dreaming. I think Adnoctum's prediction for how long ipv4 will last are fairly accurate, and depending on the uptake over the next 2 years, we could even see ipv4 gone in 2 to 5 years in most places, but that is assuming a reasonably easy switchover for ISPs and ATMs.

One area I think ipv4 will still be used a lot is in bespoke integrated circuit environment networks, or IC networks such as those you find in eco-buildings,planes and other items, For example, many electronic devices communicate using ipv4, and some have VERY tight bandwidth requirements, literally no unneeded packets are sent, things like ARP are even disabled as they aren't needed, keeping the packets sent and received to a minimum. Using an ipv6 address in this kind of scenario would increase the packet size hugely and lower the available bandwith for performing operations.

Also LANs, where a router, firewall or other NAT device allows a single ipv6 gateway address to be used by it's internal clients. This will drastically reduce the number of ipv6 addresses handed out and ease administration for network engineers and sys admins. This is true for any small to medium sized business, but less so once you begin talking about business's with multiple class C address ranges or even a class B, who would likely look at using ipv6 internally on their LAN aswell as out through their WAN link.

I've had IPV6 running on all my home devices for a long time now, and in my last job we had ipv6 running everywhere ready to go. The headache is actually very minimal, although deconstructing an IPV6 address to create slash notations and subnets I will admit, is a pain in the ass compared to IPV4, and that's why I have an app for that :).

Tibby you made a good point about countries, but you need to think bigger, you need to think planets. One of the principles that form the basis for creating this range was how long it would last, there are lots of factors in that, population growth, device density, average number of devices per person, complexity of IC networks growing, and the last one, moving to other planets. Sounds like science fiction I know, but it may not be.

If you think about what you've just said, add an octet for country, now add an octet for planet, now add an octet for solar system, now add an octet for galaxy. You've just doubled the address range but you still have the prefixed 256 addresses per range, so you increase the bits per octet and double it again, and suddenly your up to 128bit address again, but this time without the hexidecimal features, which adds the ability to do a lot more with the address ranges and subnets, for the same number of bits.

There's a great article somewhere from about 15 years ago about the design for a galaxy wide internet if you will, give it a read some time if you can find it, great article.
faugusztin 3rd June 2011, 12:28 Quote
Just a example for Tibby, why it is a issue, when your all devices are connected directly to the internet without NAT - with extra octet, country like USA would be limited to 4294967296/311478119=13.78 devices per person. Sounds ok-ish, if you have just few computers, starts to be problematic when you start to have more (TV, radio, fridge,...). Now let's look at China - 4294967296/1339724852=3.2. Whoops, only 3 devices per person in China. Oh well, let's add China more blocks, to have it equal with USA we need to give them 4 blocks.

253 (because you can't use the 0 or 255) minus 224 (number of countries in the world) brings us to 29 reserve blocks. So, we need to give 3 extra blocks to China, 3 to India. That brings us down to 23 reserve blocks - if we take the 13 devices per country as a basis. But why not take something more close to the average as a basis, for example Russia with population of 142,905,200 - that is 30 IP per person. To get that, you need to give 9 extra blocks to China, 9 to India, 2 to USA and 1 to Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan,Nigeria and Bangladesh. Whoops, we are left with just 3 spare blocks, and we are still limited to 30 IP per person (in the larger countries; in small ones like Slovakia we would have 858 IP per person).

With IPv6, we get 4.91567039 × 10^28 IP adresses per person. Enough said :).
Bungletron 3rd June 2011, 12:32 Quote
I had read about this earlier this year, its good that a more robust standard is being taken up by the big players but the reality is if you a personal user there is nothing to worry about any time soon. Your ISP will have to take measure and they are either going to the new standard or finding ways to wring out more life of IPv4, such as carrier NAT that was metioned.

Also there are a stack of spare IP addresses that are simply being wasted at the moment. Again as mentioned, part of the deployment of IPv6 involves not just handing out blocks of IP addresses willy nilly, this was a mistake of early planners of IPv4. One example is entire blocks of IP addresses being arbitrarily set asside for academic institutions, the reality became there was no way they were going to use that proportion, so the majority of their addresses are unused, there is a case for them being recycled which would free up millions.

With the big players getting on board the new standard and IPv4 able to limp along much further into the future then I think we will all be fine.
faugusztin 3rd June 2011, 12:34 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungletron
Also there are a stack of spare IP addresses that are simply being wasted at the moment.

Yes, but they are owned by someone. And transfer of ownership means trade. Yep, there is already a nice IPv4 address block trading going on, mostly Asian ISPs as buyers and American companies as sellers.
Bungletron 3rd June 2011, 12:52 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Yes, but they are owned by someone. And transfer of ownership means trade. Yep, there is already a nice IPv4 address block trading going on, mostly Asian ISPs as buyers and American companies as sellers.

Obviously the addresses have monetaryvalue. If it were me, I would not invest any large amount of money into them just spend that money towards moving to the new standard, however as a stop gap establishing a market would make things easier. You would have to worry about rampant speculation driving prices up but it should be obvious that any ip address asset bubble would burst once the new standard becomes commonplace, so it should not get out of hand.
Volund 3rd June 2011, 14:15 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Yes, but they are owned by someone. And transfer of ownership means trade. Yep, there is already a nice IPv4 address block trading going on, mostly Asian ISPs as buyers and American companies as sellers.

Microsoft bought up a big block from Nortel earlier this year as well. Big companies don't like change, unless they implement it on their time schedule.

For probably 99% of end users, the IPv6 transition will be mostly transparent. IPv6 is enabled by default in W7 (at least it is for me) on all of my NIC's. The ISP's will be the ones doing all of the work, but it makes for some welcome changes from IPv4 for network engineers.
tehBoris 3rd June 2011, 15:20 Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by faugusztin
Show me a device at your home with no IPv6 support. Home users are pretty much totally prepared for IPv6, it is the network infrastructure of the Internet itself which here and there have old IPv4 only hardware.

Printer, Xbox, PS3, DS, any computer running XP that doesn't have IPv6 installed (it isn't by default).

Ultimately you are correct in that it is a software issue and hardware doesn't matter when it comes to IPv6 support, but what it comes down to is if the manufacturers of devices that only support IPv4 going to provide a update for them to enabled IPv6? In most cases probably not.
Log in

You are not logged in, please login with your forum account below. If you don't already have an account please register to start contributing.



Discuss in the forums