Windows K-mixer needs to resample and otherwise mess with the original sound to before sending it through to your sound card. Chances are, if you’re playing CD quality audio (44kHz), Windows is resampling it to 48kHz, processing it (volume, balance, tone, etc) then resampling again back to 44kHz and sending it to your sound card.
I don't mean to be funny, cos I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to this sort of thing, but after reading the above statement I had just one question: why? I *do* understand why this sort of technique is a bit rubbish, but I don't understand why it does it, especially since there are ways to avoid it doing it.
so my integrated soundcard has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. whats the word on those? will the sound become "lossless" in terms of computer-interference and crappy windows decoding? i am planning to send the signal to my amp but haven't got around to what cable to buy...
well im still using winamp2.93 and i have to say im not all that impressed by it (i only use it because its quick) ill check out foobar when i get home
I remember having ASIO drivers up before on an old creative X-Fi driver. Now they are nowhere to be seen.
Anyone have any ideas how to get ASIO working on X-Fi cards?
I have X-Fi Elite Pro?
Originally Posted by Bogie I remember having ASIO drivers up before on an old creative X-Fi driver. Now they are nowhere to be seen.
Anyone have any ideas how to get ASIO working on X-Fi cards?
I have X-Fi Elite Pro?
The ASIO drivers are built into the manager software with everything else.
simply set it to audio creation mode and it will change the handling to ASIO, which you can then use with the winamp plugins (then play FLAC and rock all night )
note however that only the X-Fi Platinum and X-Fi Elite have the ASIO drivers built into the manager software, the Fatality had that removed to lower the cost compared to the Elite
Originally Posted by stoff3r so my integrated soundcard has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. whats the word on those? will the sound become "lossless" in terms of computer-interference and crappy windows decoding? i am planning to send the signal to my amp but haven't got around to what cable to buy...
Not quite sure on the technicalities within a soundcard (does the sound get passed through a DAC, processed and then back through a DAC) but that 'should' be the best option. However, you'll then need to spend a good amount of money on an external DAC before your amp/speakers to simply get back to the quality you would have had just using the onboard DAC. Of course though with some cash an external DAC will be better... Just depends on how far you want to take it.
Oh, and people tend to state that CoAX is the better option for a digital out.... Although if the sound is passed digitally I'm not completely sure why!!
Regarding the article, congratulations! You need stones to write that... Out of all fanboy, over the top arguements I've been part of, audio always generates the most 'debated' forums!
Personally like an external Amp and bookshelf speakers on the desk over anything with PC Speakers written on them, but I'll always state that you'll never get the same quality out of a computer than you will from a good CD seperate with a brick on top. There's simply too much going on electronically in a computer. In fact, last time I was looking for a hi-fi that could be classed as in a 'sensible' budget I remember audiophiles telling me about how the circuit boards are even 3 degrees out of plain to reduce interference!
As one piece of advice I give to anyone thinking about getting better sounds from a computer - check Richersounds (if you're in the UK) and just see if you can get a basic amp and bookshelf speakers for the same price of your 'Obber loud fau1it3y edition 7.1 pc speakers'. Yeah the amp take up more space... but really not anymore than a sub and 5 other mini speakers. I'll also shave my entire body if a 7.1 set sounds better - even for movies (no comparing a 20 year old Amstrad to a 7.1 Mordaunt-Short system just to see the shaving please!).
On the otherhand however, you already have a computer if your on these forums, and so a large part of the cost is already spent and articles like this are a great way to introduce people into the audio world, who would have otherwise missed out.
Originally Posted by The_Pope I don't mean to be funny, cos I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to this sort of thing, but after reading the above statement I had just one question: why? I *do* understand why this sort of technique is a bit rubbish, but I don't understand why it does it, especially since there are ways to avoid it doing it.
I believe from my reading that it's due to the fact that windows mixes together all the audio streams being played on the pc e.g. music, windows sounds etc and so needs to get them all to the same sample rate. In addition I'm not sure the article was right when it said kmixer resamples from 44.1-48-44.1. I believe it merely resamples from 44.1 to 44.1. Josh am I totally wrong? In addition creative cards have traditionally resampled all 44.1 content to 48 due to the audio processor not supporting 44.1 streams natively. Not sure if that still applies for the X-Fi (think it does but is done better due to more horsepower) but it was one of the big advantages of cards based on Via envy chipsets due to them not resampling 44.1 content to 48 but rather they just sent the 44.1 straight to the dacs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoff3r so my integrated soundcard has both optical and coaxial digital outputs. whats the word on those? will the sound become "lossless" in terms of computer-interference and crappy windows decoding? i am planning to send the signal to my amp but haven't got around to what cable to buy...
Using onboard digital per se will not avoid the kmixers resampling and in addition many onboard codecs have traditionally resampled from 44.1-48 much like the creative cards mentioned above (again not too sure about the latest codecs?)
Had to register just to comment... Now I was familiar with foobar before but not asio and wow, I can tell the difference clearly now between foobar and winmediaplayer on my logitech Z3 speakers which are not exactly hifi...
I read that the audigy has quality problems cos it allways has to go internally to 48khz, so going from 44.1 to 48 was bad cos of the small difference. So now I can directly upsample to 24/96 that has plenty of detail for upsampling. Standard windoze audio sounds clearly muffled now...
Great guide for a beginner in computer hi-fi. Another low cost usb dac option is the silverstone EB01; while not as high end as the 0404 it does a great job for about $80 (us).
After saying this: "A few upgrades and tweaks down the line, all of my music is ripped in lossless, and in nearly all cases, the difference between 320k MP3 and FLAC is apparent" I feel I'm forced to ask you for some setup-details. I have some doubts about anyone hearing the difference, and atleast I like to hear on what kind of setup do the differences appear?
the one best thing to do with any soundcard is to mod an EMI shield onto it.
I did it with my X-Fi (was an absolute pain) but ultimately worth it.
the best soundcard for those who don't want to deal with a lot of external gear is the X-Fi platinum. set it to ASIO mode (to avoid all the processing that can cause artifacts) and use the playback methods outlined in the article.
as for those asking if their MP3 will become 'lossless' quality by using external equipment, the answer is no. MP3 is MP3 and as such will always sound like crap.
well Josh, I would just like to say that having recently upgraded both my hi-fi equipment and my computer audio equipment in my latest step up the audiophile ladder, it is great to read such a well presented, thought out and ultimately unbiased (excepting the alliance to foobar, EAC and FLAC which make sense) article. I have been using foobar and ASIO to play my music for a while now (ever since i upgraded my speakers) however i did not know about EAC, and can i just say it eats my old CD ripper for breakfast! I can now clearly tell the difference between one of my albums ripped in FLAC and mp3, wheras before i went back to 192kb/s mp3 as i couldnt hear the difference over FLAC. I guess now i am going to have to go out and purchase a new 500gb monster hard drive to store all my FLAC on!!!!
heh I just got my new card for audio use. An AWE64 gold ISA (for pure stereo cd sound its vastly supirior to the xfi and for midi it's simply no contest)... sits in a pc who's only job is to play music. Foobar + EAC are the best software for tweeking. I will try asio later but I think my card is not having the output resampled so it probobly won't make a differance.
I love the site, but I have some problems with the article.
First of all, in blind tests no one can reliable tell the difference between quality mp3 songs and lossless. I have read a few articles in magazines/online that show this. If you are encoding your mp3s at a good bitrate with a good ripper, etc. you should have audio that will sound great.
Next is the recommendation of creative speakers?! How are you planning on convincing people to convert to lossless when you recommend these?
The other thing is when you diss up-mixing. It is very common in recording and in high end audio equipment to upmix. It just seems that this article was thrown together without enough research.
So do I have to uninstall my old sound drivers and then install the asio one or just install it on top?
I'm using asio4all and the windows speaker symbol is still visible in my taskbar and i can still adjust my volume with that.
did i do something wrong?
One thing to remember when spending money on cables is that no cable will ever make a speaker sound better, but they can make the sound less bad (it makes sense, honest!).
Isn't an improvement subjective ...
Therefore, if you get a better cable, and you believe it sounds better, the cable has made the speaker sound better (Well more specifically the sound)
Quote:
however, you will need to perform some degree of cable swapping unless your speakers can receive more than one output.
bit of a weird way to word it
Most people would say "unless your speakers have multiple inputs"
Quote:
Assuming that the data stays digital. Wouldn't a on board card with digital out to optical receiver work just as well?
Theoretically - yes
However, apparently its not so, and even digital data has its problems, i don't quite understand it myself
Edit
Oh, and i would have though it would be nice to tell people how to encode with a high rate VBR to MP3, using EAC, considering mp3 is a much more supported format, i think it would have been nice to explain both ways ...
foobar is better than winmedplayer whether through my 1 in. laptop speakers or my headphones, but definetly better when i play it on my house stereo system the bass is more refined and the highs is crystal clear.
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I don't mean to be funny, cos I'm a bit of a n00b when it comes to this sort of thing, but after reading the above statement I had just one question: why? I *do* understand why this sort of technique is a bit rubbish, but I don't understand why it does it, especially since there are ways to avoid it doing it.
Neon
Damn you Joshua Moore, now I'll end up trying to get a new audio setup as well as upgrading the pc!
Anyone have any ideas how to get ASIO working on X-Fi cards?
I have X-Fi Elite Pro?
http://www.asio4all.com/
The ASIO drivers are built into the manager software with everything else.
simply set it to audio creation mode and it will change the handling to ASIO, which you can then use with the winamp plugins (then play FLAC and rock all night )
note however that only the X-Fi Platinum and X-Fi Elite have the ASIO drivers built into the manager software, the Fatality had that removed to lower the cost compared to the Elite
Not quite sure on the technicalities within a soundcard (does the sound get passed through a DAC, processed and then back through a DAC) but that 'should' be the best option. However, you'll then need to spend a good amount of money on an external DAC before your amp/speakers to simply get back to the quality you would have had just using the onboard DAC. Of course though with some cash an external DAC will be better... Just depends on how far you want to take it.
Oh, and people tend to state that CoAX is the better option for a digital out.... Although if the sound is passed digitally I'm not completely sure why!!
Regarding the article, congratulations! You need stones to write that... Out of all fanboy, over the top arguements I've been part of, audio always generates the most 'debated' forums!
Personally like an external Amp and bookshelf speakers on the desk over anything with PC Speakers written on them, but I'll always state that you'll never get the same quality out of a computer than you will from a good CD seperate with a brick on top. There's simply too much going on electronically in a computer. In fact, last time I was looking for a hi-fi that could be classed as in a 'sensible' budget I remember audiophiles telling me about how the circuit boards are even 3 degrees out of plain to reduce interference!
As one piece of advice I give to anyone thinking about getting better sounds from a computer - check Richersounds (if you're in the UK) and just see if you can get a basic amp and bookshelf speakers for the same price of your 'Obber loud fau1it3y edition 7.1 pc speakers'. Yeah the amp take up more space... but really not anymore than a sub and 5 other mini speakers. I'll also shave my entire body if a 7.1 set sounds better - even for movies (no comparing a 20 year old Amstrad to a 7.1 Mordaunt-Short system just to see the shaving please!).
On the otherhand however, you already have a computer if your on these forums, and so a large part of the cost is already spent and articles like this are a great way to introduce people into the audio world, who would have otherwise missed out.
Hope that helps
Had to register just to comment... Now I was familiar with foobar before but not asio and wow, I can tell the difference clearly now between foobar and winmediaplayer on my logitech Z3 speakers which are not exactly hifi...
I read that the audigy has quality problems cos it allways has to go internally to 48khz, so going from 44.1 to 48 was bad cos of the small difference. So now I can directly upsample to 24/96 that has plenty of detail for upsampling. Standard windoze audio sounds clearly muffled now...
Thanks alot for this info!!
Welcome to bit-tech ;)
I did it with my X-Fi (was an absolute pain) but ultimately worth it.
the best soundcard for those who don't want to deal with a lot of external gear is the X-Fi platinum. set it to ASIO mode (to avoid all the processing that can cause artifacts) and use the playback methods outlined in the article.
as for those asking if their MP3 will become 'lossless' quality by using external equipment, the answer is no. MP3 is MP3 and as such will always sound like crap.
however, I would like to also recommend ExactAudioCopy ..great program.
First of all, in blind tests no one can reliable tell the difference between quality mp3 songs and lossless. I have read a few articles in magazines/online that show this. If you are encoding your mp3s at a good bitrate with a good ripper, etc. you should have audio that will sound great.
Next is the recommendation of creative speakers?! How are you planning on convincing people to convert to lossless when you recommend these?
The other thing is when you diss up-mixing. It is very common in recording and in high end audio equipment to upmix. It just seems that this article was thrown together without enough research.
I'm using asio4all and the windows speaker symbol is still visible in my taskbar and i can still adjust my volume with that.
did i do something wrong?
Therefore, if you get a better cable, and you believe it sounds better, the cable has made the speaker sound better (Well more specifically the sound)
Most people would say "unless your speakers have multiple inputs"
However, apparently its not so, and even digital data has its problems, i don't quite understand it myself
Edit
Oh, and i would have though it would be nice to tell people how to encode with a high rate VBR to MP3, using EAC, considering mp3 is a much more supported format, i think it would have been nice to explain both ways ...