Originally Posted by scq What's wrong with cheaper, traditional methods of education? I don't see how a laptop can surpass the teaching ability of books and an instructor.
Have you actually read my posts? Going at $5 a book, thats 20 books a kid can have before he could have had one of these laptops. A laptop with even just a 10GB hard disk could hold thousands of books, not to mention it won't ever run out of chalk for writing with. It's not meant to surpass an instructor, but the way I see it, if they used laptops in schools instead of books then they'd have far more resources available to them in a far cheaper package.
lol, it has wireless built in, but that requires an access point, who is going to sit there and turn the handle on that ;)
I wonder how well these things can be overclocked
Not having a laptop doesn't make you poor. Not having access to reliably clean drinking water on the other hand does, and this is what the World Health Organization has been trying to say for years. They've published several large reports on the subject showing how constructing water distribution and indoor plumbing would not only be cheap, but would also eventually pay for itself in GNP gains.
Spend the money on pumping, plumbing, and filtration instead of toys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by specofdust People are dying in Africa from starvation, but that isn't going to change, regardless of food aid, so long as the population are uneducated.
People are dieing from starvation in countries where clan warfare is still rampant because the feuding clans have a habit of mopping up all the supplies meant to feed the starving.
Originally Posted by Captain Slug People are dieing from starvation in countries where clan warfare is still rampant because the feuding clans have a habit of mopping up all the supplies meant to feed the starving.
Well unless you want 20 more Iraq's, there is no solution to this other then to educate the populace. Dictatorships cannot thrive in a world where people are wise. So long as as much of Africa is uneducated as it is today, war lords, militias, and dictatorships will thrive. Putting in water pumps is pointless if there's no food, and putting in food is pointless if it only gets taken away, or is needed the next year, and the next, and the next.
We screwed up Africa, I think the west can honestly say that's the case. It's time we tried to fix it, with a serious effort, this should include not just basic aid, but serious attempts at educating, just like this. If that doesn't work, then the continent is overpopulated, and AIDS should lower the population out within a century.
I don't get why people are suggesting this is pointless and should be spent on standard aid. We've been doing that for the last 50 years, Africa still mostly sucks at standing on it's own feet. It's time we tried something different.
i have to agree with specofdust, we need to give them the tools to do things for them selves. Maybe giving each child a laptop isn't the way, but hell if these companies wanna try, good on them, and I hope it works.
To Captain Slug, maybe it wouldn't cost too much to fit plumbing and such, but it would be a hell of a lot better to educate them to be able to do it for themselves. This would mean they could teach it to others and so forth, then it's only a matter of time until that issue would be sorted.
Unfortunately there isn't much we can do for the millions already suffering from AIDS, but with education a difference could be made in the next generations.
Basically what I'm saying is that if this OLPC helps to educate the population of the third world even by a tiny amount, it will have done more good than 50 yrs of sending food and aid over just for it not get to the people who needed it the most.
Originally Posted by specofdust Well unless you want 20 more Iraq's, there is no solution to this other then to educate the populace.
People that are starving have a tendency to concentrate their efforts of sustinence instead of attending school. Physiological needs always come first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dullonien To Captain Slug, maybe it wouldn't cost too much to fit plumbing and such, but it would be a hell of a lot better to educate them to be able to do it for themselves. This would mean they could teach it to others and so forth, then it's only a matter of time until that issue would be sorted.
One of the studies actually hit upon the fact that the vast majority of female students in poor countries do not attend school SIMPLY BECAUSE there are no restrooms for them. Lacking an effective infrastructure has a huge effect on education due to secondary effects. Areas that do not have direct access to water waste as much as 70% of their weekly productivity transporting drinking water.
Would you have bothered to go to school if every time you had to go get a drink or go to the bathroom you had to travel all the way back home?
Originally Posted by Captain Slug One of the studies actually hit upon the fact that the vast majority of female students in poor countries do not attend school SIMPLY BECAUSE there are no restrooms for them. Lacking an effective infrastructure has a huge effect on education due to secondary effects. Areas that do not have direct access to water waste as much as 70% of their weekly productivity transporting drinking water.
Would you have bothered to go to school if every time you had to go get a drink or go to the bathroom you had to travel all the way back home?
Hmm some interesting points there. I suppose there needs to be a balance between directly helping these countries through aid, and indirectly helping through giving them the resources and information to help themselves.
Originally Posted by dragon-fly there is no doubt on who will want the laptops, us technology geeks obviously will want some as the price is extremely appealing
As a low tech clumsy stingy environmentalist with little taste, I'd be in the running :)
Seriously though.
It's unlikely that computers can supply any basic human need (in terms of food, shelter, warmth, etc.). It is likely that computers in other countries can be enablers, just as they are here, and play their (not exclusive) part in education (and lets not forget good ol' consumerist capitalism)
I wonder about the cultural context that computers are dropped into (and adidas, good point on difference between rural and urban areas). . Computers were born into the 'developed' world, and have grown up and matured there- admittedly at a ridiculously accelerated rate. But that means weve had time to culturally adjust. Were comfortable with them. Even the people who know nothing of computers have a language and a space to be know-nothings in. And we can tolerate that. The point is, that theyre not alien. They are from and of us.
When Nike aired an advert showing a black athlete running side by side (and crucially, a bit in front) of a big cat a number of people died. This was because a some African tribespeople believed that Nike trainers would confer upon the wearer a magickal ability to outrun big cats. In the infamous Coke example, African mothers were choosing to give their babies the eponymous beverage rather than breast milk, as the adverts suggested that coke equalled beauty, success- in fact everything Western- and therefore Coke must be the best gift you could give your childs future.
Now obviously, 'developing world' people arent stupid. But they do sometimes operate to an entirely different set of cultural assumptions than us. When were in the role of supplier, and theyre our consumers, that can lead to some difficulties. Can we really just plonk a laptop in a village and expect them to get on with it? How much training will be required (and not just of the switch on and click variety)?
I'm not realistically suggesting that we'll end up in some wierd cargo cult situation with this, but historically, our record of imposing our cultural norms on other societies has had some not always desirable effects, and I'd like to know how the companies developing these things are looking to integrate them into the societies where their use is planned. And I'd also like to know who their test groups are...
"give a man a fish, and he eats for a day, Teach a man to fish and he can feed his whole family for a lifetime"
Doesn't it make sense to teach these people how to get water (and at first help them too) how to grow food, how to stop aids
Instead of just giving them food or water, or sending in Christians to bore them about pre-marital sex
AID's is rampant over there, perhaps computers would help, it would give them something to do besides F****** but really, there are other needs that need to be addressed
this is an interesting machine, and could prove usefull, when i was a child there would be times when i would wish someone would make a portable computer that would run forever or be powered by a crank (the irony), and were i could have gazilions of books to read and not have to carry 10 Kg of books every day to school.
education is a great way to improve a country.....but......this is something that should be done not now, but a little in the future, first take care of the food and water problem, kill the dictators and evil leaders and make it so that there is a infrastructure were these laptops could be used.
as for a time to people adjust....welll..... when mobile phones first arrived here no one used them and no one liked them....one day a rich guy got one, then another and in..say...6 months about every one had one and now we have more mobile phones than people.
and if companies are willing to spend their cash in this efort, for god let them. i dont care and i could even get one if it comes this way and if it comes in black with a dvd player and a larger HD. :D
what i want to know is why dont I have a highdefinition monochromemode thingy on my dadgum laptop for reading, my eyes hurt to y'know!
but seriously, few of these will get to really, poor people they will get bought up by cheap people who want internet and such, but not willing to pay for a real laptop. cmon...."hmm... do i eat this year or get a olpc for my kid?...hmm..."
I think a laptop for every child is being a tad optimistic, at school 90% of textbooks had to be shared, and computers were 1 in 100 pupils, that was 10 years ago, the books probably havn't improved, and I doubt theyve moved the percentage of computers up beyond 5%.
I'm sure there's a at least semi-idealistic motorvation behind pushing what's effectively a computerised book and puzzle machine into every school in africa, but I'm not sure it's the best way to address the problems.
My school has tons of computers (my guess, around 250 for 1100 students) which is quite nice. Theyre all from companies as donations through a program called Computers for Schools, so we get lots. They don't really assist in learning in school though, because the teachers do that, because if it was left up to the kids they would be on addictinggames.com rather than working (as we always are) so selling PCs to third-world countries is pointless without internet, or processing power to do anything other than office stuff, but if nobody has a printer, why would you need to type stuff? The internet is the most important part of a useful learning PC, without it, its a waste.
there are quite alot here, all of them dells, we have like 4-5k pupils here, and there is a computer in every classroom (for the register) so i guess a fair number of computers, still i doubt more then 1 per 20
Yeh its a stupid idea. 3rd world countries need decent food/water/electricity, not some technological device designed to run off their crappy infrastructure. Improve the infrastructure don't work around it!
the aim probably wouldn't be to drop a laptop on a child starving in the middle of nowhere in Africa.
But there are many many countries that are one step up...that have food, shelter and basic Education, but no communication/computerisation.
I'm thinking large parts of India, China, Russia, South America, Middle America up to Mexico. Places like that.
I realize that PIC and OLPC don't have quite the same goal...but i think they would complete eachother.
The OLPC is aimed to be much cheaper than the PIC though, and as it wouln't be a lot less powerfull, it'd probably replace the PIC, at least for the AMD 50x15 Initiative.
Originally Posted by specofdust Have you actually read my posts? Going at $5 a book, thats 20 books a kid can have before he could have had one of these laptops. A laptop with even just a 10GB hard disk could hold thousands of books, not to mention it won't ever run out of chalk for writing with. It's not meant to surpass an instructor, but the way I see it, if they used laptops in schools instead of books then they'd have far more resources available to them in a far cheaper package.
I can see where you're running with this, but it doesn't help to know where Germany is on a map if you don't know if you're going to eat that day or not.
Aid supplies are very often hoarded by richer dictatorial elites, so if our current ways of distributing food and medical supplies fail, what makes us think that we can distribute enough laptops?
Yes, an educated population may very well question their oppressed governments, but what are they going to do? Protests and signs are no match for bullets. Priority one is feeding people. Doesn't help if you can read if you can't eat.
Originally Posted by scq I can see where you're running with this, but it doesn't help to know where Germany is on a map if you don't know if you're going to eat that day or not.
Aid supplies are very often hoarded by richer dictatorial elites, so if our current ways of distributing food and medical supplies fail, what makes us think that we can distribute enough laptops?
Yes, an educated population may very well question their oppressed governments, but what are they going to do? Protests and signs are no match for bullets. Priority one is feeding people. Doesn't help if you can read if you can't eat.
Indeed! It's unbelieveable that among all those big companies who're developing this not one of those boffins thought of that. Maybe you should ring them up and tell them, save them a few pennies.
On the other hand, maybe they did think of that. Maybe the plan is to distribute these laptops to kids in africa who live in relatively stable areas of Africa, but who just cannot afford and education, or cannot afford much of one.
I dunno, maybe you should give a quick ring to the companies just to make sure eh? ;) :p
okay... many valid points have been raised for both sides of the argument... forget all of that for a second and step back...
imagine a new global network. GLOBAL in the actual sense.
-the majority of systems in use all running the same OS and all using virtually identical equipment.
-easily networked, low power consumption, market flooded with STANDARDIZED parts
-FREE/OPEN SOURCE software
-OLPC for lack of a better term gives an interesting starting point for the learning curve
in the long run, if it is a successful project, the world population becomes more educated, possibly better organized... we've all seen eastern and western culture merging for decades... there is alot more culture out there that will be assimilated, albeit within a standardized framework...
whether it works or happens or what, it isn't the actual project that matters, but the idea :|
of course, it all sounds slightly utopian, but that's okay... as cheezy as it is, think about how things would be if the rest of the world was suddenly on "equal" footing with the Free World...
it might be interesting to chat with a massai tribesman and a siberian villager about canadian healthcare someday...
it might be interesting to chat with a massai tribesman and a siberian villager about canadian healthcare someday...
Of course, that brings up an issue. The language barrier. The internet (mostly english) is not going to help some child in India who can't read or write in his own language, let alone english (supposedly the hardest language to learn in the world) so what good is that to them? Unless some verbal-translation software is included, people won't get much use out of a laptop.
Originally Posted by mattthegamer463 Of course, that brings up an issue. The language barrier. The internet (mostly english) is not going to help some child in India who can't read or write in his own language, let alone english (supposedly the hardest language to learn in the world) so what good is that to them? Unless some verbal-translation software is included, people won't get much use out of a laptop.
Ok, firstly, there is a hell of a lot more to the internet then the English bits. The internet is very much seperated into languages, but just because you don't see them doesn't mean the other bits don't exist.
Secondly, India is an English speaking country(the biggest in the world by population). You should know that.
Thirdly, just because a lot of the internet is in English does't mean people can't get much out of it. So long as there are people working on Chinese, Arabic, Italian, Portogeuse etc. versions of sites like Wikipedia, the internet has a massive purpose.
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Have you actually read my posts? Going at $5 a book, thats 20 books a kid can have before he could have had one of these laptops. A laptop with even just a 10GB hard disk could hold thousands of books, not to mention it won't ever run out of chalk for writing with. It's not meant to surpass an instructor, but the way I see it, if they used laptops in schools instead of books then they'd have far more resources available to them in a far cheaper package.
I wonder how well these things can be overclocked
yey.
Spend the money on pumping, plumbing, and filtration instead of toys.
Well unless you want 20 more Iraq's, there is no solution to this other then to educate the populace. Dictatorships cannot thrive in a world where people are wise. So long as as much of Africa is uneducated as it is today, war lords, militias, and dictatorships will thrive. Putting in water pumps is pointless if there's no food, and putting in food is pointless if it only gets taken away, or is needed the next year, and the next, and the next.
We screwed up Africa, I think the west can honestly say that's the case. It's time we tried to fix it, with a serious effort, this should include not just basic aid, but serious attempts at educating, just like this. If that doesn't work, then the continent is overpopulated, and AIDS should lower the population out within a century.
I don't get why people are suggesting this is pointless and should be spent on standard aid. We've been doing that for the last 50 years, Africa still mostly sucks at standing on it's own feet. It's time we tried something different.
To Captain Slug, maybe it wouldn't cost too much to fit plumbing and such, but it would be a hell of a lot better to educate them to be able to do it for themselves. This would mean they could teach it to others and so forth, then it's only a matter of time until that issue would be sorted.
Unfortunately there isn't much we can do for the millions already suffering from AIDS, but with education a difference could be made in the next generations.
Basically what I'm saying is that if this OLPC helps to educate the population of the third world even by a tiny amount, it will have done more good than 50 yrs of sending food and aid over just for it not get to the people who needed it the most.
Would you have bothered to go to school if every time you had to go get a drink or go to the bathroom you had to travel all the way back home?
Hmm some interesting points there. I suppose there needs to be a balance between directly helping these countries through aid, and indirectly helping through giving them the resources and information to help themselves.
As a low tech clumsy stingy environmentalist with little taste, I'd be in the running :)
Seriously though.
It's unlikely that computers can supply any basic human need (in terms of food, shelter, warmth, etc.). It is likely that computers in other countries can be enablers, just as they are here, and play their (not exclusive) part in education (and lets not forget good ol' consumerist capitalism)
I wonder about the cultural context that computers are dropped into (and adidas, good point on difference between rural and urban areas). . Computers were born into the 'developed' world, and have grown up and matured there- admittedly at a ridiculously accelerated rate. But that means weve had time to culturally adjust. Were comfortable with them. Even the people who know nothing of computers have a language and a space to be know-nothings in. And we can tolerate that. The point is, that theyre not alien. They are from and of us.
When Nike aired an advert showing a black athlete running side by side (and crucially, a bit in front) of a big cat a number of people died. This was because a some African tribespeople believed that Nike trainers would confer upon the wearer a magickal ability to outrun big cats. In the infamous Coke example, African mothers were choosing to give their babies the eponymous beverage rather than breast milk, as the adverts suggested that coke equalled beauty, success- in fact everything Western- and therefore Coke must be the best gift you could give your childs future.
Now obviously, 'developing world' people arent stupid. But they do sometimes operate to an entirely different set of cultural assumptions than us. When were in the role of supplier, and theyre our consumers, that can lead to some difficulties. Can we really just plonk a laptop in a village and expect them to get on with it? How much training will be required (and not just of the switch on and click variety)?
I'm not realistically suggesting that we'll end up in some wierd cargo cult situation with this, but historically, our record of imposing our cultural norms on other societies has had some not always desirable effects, and I'd like to know how the companies developing these things are looking to integrate them into the societies where their use is planned. And I'd also like to know who their test groups are...
Doesn't it make sense to teach these people how to get water (and at first help them too) how to grow food, how to stop aids
Instead of just giving them food or water, or sending in Christians to bore them about pre-marital sex
AID's is rampant over there, perhaps computers would help, it would give them something to do besides F****** but really, there are other needs that need to be addressed
education is a great way to improve a country.....but......this is something that should be done not now, but a little in the future, first take care of the food and water problem, kill the dictators and evil leaders and make it so that there is a infrastructure were these laptops could be used.
as for a time to people adjust....welll..... when mobile phones first arrived here no one used them and no one liked them....one day a rich guy got one, then another and in..say...6 months about every one had one and now we have more mobile phones than people.
and if companies are willing to spend their cash in this efort, for god let them. i dont care and i could even get one if it comes this way and if it comes in black with a dvd player and a larger HD. :D
but seriously, few of these will get to really, poor people they will get bought up by cheap people who want internet and such, but not willing to pay for a real laptop. cmon...."hmm... do i eat this year or get a olpc for my kid?...hmm..."
I'm sure there's a at least semi-idealistic motorvation behind pushing what's effectively a computerised book and puzzle machine into every school in africa, but I'm not sure it's the best way to address the problems.
heheheheh
Yeh its a stupid idea. 3rd world countries need decent food/water/electricity, not some technological device designed to run off their crappy infrastructure. Improve the infrastructure don't work around it!
the aim probably wouldn't be to drop a laptop on a child starving in the middle of nowhere in Africa.
But there are many many countries that are one step up...that have food, shelter and basic Education, but no communication/computerisation.
I'm thinking large parts of India, China, Russia, South America, Middle America up to Mexico. Places like that.
Basically these are places that AMD aimes the PIC at.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/ConnectivitySolutions/ProductInformation/0,,50_2330_12264,00.html
http://50x15.amd.com/
I realize that PIC and OLPC don't have quite the same goal...but i think they would complete eachother.
The OLPC is aimed to be much cheaper than the PIC though, and as it wouln't be a lot less powerfull, it'd probably replace the PIC, at least for the AMD 50x15 Initiative.
Cheers,
Xir
I can see where you're running with this, but it doesn't help to know where Germany is on a map if you don't know if you're going to eat that day or not.
Aid supplies are very often hoarded by richer dictatorial elites, so if our current ways of distributing food and medical supplies fail, what makes us think that we can distribute enough laptops?
Yes, an educated population may very well question their oppressed governments, but what are they going to do? Protests and signs are no match for bullets. Priority one is feeding people. Doesn't help if you can read if you can't eat.
Indeed! It's unbelieveable that among all those big companies who're developing this not one of those boffins thought of that. Maybe you should ring them up and tell them, save them a few pennies.
On the other hand, maybe they did think of that. Maybe the plan is to distribute these laptops to kids in africa who live in relatively stable areas of Africa, but who just cannot afford and education, or cannot afford much of one.
I dunno, maybe you should give a quick ring to the companies just to make sure eh? ;) :p
imagine a new global network. GLOBAL in the actual sense.
-the majority of systems in use all running the same OS and all using virtually identical equipment.
-easily networked, low power consumption, market flooded with STANDARDIZED parts
-FREE/OPEN SOURCE software
-OLPC for lack of a better term gives an interesting starting point for the learning curve
in the long run, if it is a successful project, the world population becomes more educated, possibly better organized... we've all seen eastern and western culture merging for decades... there is alot more culture out there that will be assimilated, albeit within a standardized framework...
whether it works or happens or what, it isn't the actual project that matters, but the idea :|
of course, it all sounds slightly utopian, but that's okay... as cheezy as it is, think about how things would be if the rest of the world was suddenly on "equal" footing with the Free World...
it might be interesting to chat with a massai tribesman and a siberian villager about canadian healthcare someday...
enough rambling...
i love bit-tech!!
Bill gates succeeded where the British empire failed
Ok, firstly, there is a hell of a lot more to the internet then the English bits. The internet is very much seperated into languages, but just because you don't see them doesn't mean the other bits don't exist.
Secondly, India is an English speaking country(the biggest in the world by population). You should know that.
Thirdly, just because a lot of the internet is in English does't mean people can't get much out of it. So long as there are people working on Chinese, Arabic, Italian, Portogeuse etc. versions of sites like Wikipedia, the internet has a massive purpose.